Eugene, Oregon Linux Users Group ()

headers silverlining2007@gmail.com | 1 Aug 2008 02:09

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On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Bob Miller <kbob <at> jogger-egg.com> wrote:
> You might also want to consider just getting another box.
> Keep one stable for real work, and play on the other.
>
> If your finances, living space, or briefcase won't support two whole
> computers, you could get one or more external USB hard drives and boot
> the experimental stuff on that.

Household management has shot down a second computer. Something about
decor.   I already tried with the fantasy of using a second box
parked upstairs for back-up purposes and having a substitute computer
for when this one goes wonky. But I could probably get away with an
external drive if I park it in my desktop shelving. However, I'd
really like to get away from dual-booting if I can.

> Aside from some magic grub configuration, Linux on a USB drive acts
> just linux on normal hardware.

Are read/write speeds comparable? I have a vague recollection of
someone saying USB hard drives suffer from lower data transfer rates.

That is NOT the case for virtual
> hosts.

I'd appreciate a short list of major losses in functionality. Running
Kubuntu Hardy on Virtual Box/WinXP has worked for me thus far, but I
haven't tried everything I might want to do and wouldn't want to box
myself in too tightly. And my fantasy is to in effect swap what is
host and what is guest.

> Experimentation is great fun.  Having a reliable, running system,
> though, is mandatory.

Agreed. I've been running on a Band-Aid solution far too long. I need
to get to the bottom of my hardware issues and redesign the system
from the ground up.

> I thought Microsoft was no longer selling XP licenses, BTW.

Publicly, that's the policy. But in reality Microsoft is still
publishing WinXP, commonly offshore or under a "buy a Vista license
get a free copy of XP" regime. See e.g.,
<http://apcmag.com/xp_still_killing_vista_in_sales_volume_hp.htm> and
<http://apcmag.com/windows_xp_is_dead_long_live_windows_xp.htm>
(Microsoft quietly extended XP support for three more years in June;
"Mr Veghte gave the cryptic explanation that '...customers who still
need Windows XP will be able to get it.'"

It's largely limited to major accounts and suppliers from all signs,
but XP is reaching the market anyway. Ebay in particular seems to be
the major online market for XP retail sales these days.

The Vista sales figures are reportedly pretty much meaningless because
of the buy-Vista-get-XP-free stuff. Microsoft is in a hard spot.
Removing XP from the market would spur OEM migration to Linux,
particularly in the low-system resource PC market.

<tangent>

The vaporware is flowing for Singularity-derived Midori, a Microsoft
cross-hardware platform (x86, x64 and ARM thus far) replacement for
Windows that's also supposed to scale to cloud computing.
<http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=32627>.

Microsoft is also in a bottleneck in cloud computing. Windows High
Performance Cluster Server won't scale high enough. The Microsoft
work-around for now is multiple instances of WinHPCS running atop
Solaris and Sun x86-x64 hardware. Sun has a very groovy modular
approach to building cloud computing data centers, data center modules
in a shipping container.<http://www.sun.com/products/sunmd/s20/index.jsp>
(Google has a potentially blocking patent, but reportedly there's tons
of prior art. <http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,278,273.PN.&OS=PN/7,278,273&RS=PN/7,278,27>.

But the Sun-Microsoft deal expires in 2014. See the three April 1,
2004 agreements at
<http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/709519/0001193125-04-155723-index.htm>.
 And of course IBM wants a piece of the Solaris-based server farms
Microsoft is building for its cloud computing initiative and
proprietary assault on the open internet. See e.g.,
<http://sun.systemnews.com/articles/114/3/news/18517>.

So my sniff is that Midori may be as much about the Microsoft
bargaining position with Big Iron on the 2014 horizon as it is a plan
to replace the NT-derived branch of Windows, particularly given
Microsoft's history of vaporware.  Meanwhile, the enterprise market
still yawns when it comes to cloud and grid computing.
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9110329>.

I don't have enough sheep entrails to foresee how such events will play out.

</tangent>

Best regards,

Paul

--

-- 
Universal Interoperability Council
<http:www.universal-interop-council.org>

This is the design I am putting in place now.  openSuSE with be the host
OS with WinXP, SLES and OSX as VMs in VMware.  The shared data drive is
accessed with networking protocols.  From what I hear trying to access
the data natively from mutilple OSs is asking for trouble.

VMs don't have the same access to hardware as the host OS so make sure
the host can do anything you ever heard about doing so if you try to
access some hardware device in a VM and it doesn't work you can still do
it at the host level.  For example, not all USB devices are created
equal.

Cheers.
Bob Crandell

On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 21:35 -0700, marbux wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Bob Miller <kbob <at> jogger-egg.com> wrote:
> > You might also want to consider just getting another box.
> > Keep one stable for real work, and play on the other.
> >
> > If your finances, living space, or briefcase won't support two whole
> > computers, you could get one or more external USB hard drives and boot
> > the experimental stuff on that.
> 
> Household management has shot down a second computer. Something about
> decor.   I already tried with the fantasy of using a second box
> parked upstairs for back-up purposes and having a substitute computer
> for when this one goes wonky. But I could probably get away with an
> external drive if I park it in my desktop shelving. However, I'd
> really like to get away from dual-booting if I can.
> 
> > Aside from some magic grub configuration, Linux on a USB drive acts
> > just linux on normal hardware.
> 
> Are read/write speeds comparable? I have a vague recollection of
> someone saying USB hard drives suffer from lower data transfer rates.
> 
> That is NOT the case for virtual
> > hosts.
> 
> I'd appreciate a short list of major losses in functionality. Running
> Kubuntu Hardy on Virtual Box/WinXP has worked for me thus far, but I
> haven't tried everything I might want to do and wouldn't want to box
> myself in too tightly. And my fantasy is to in effect swap what is
> host and what is guest.
> 
> > Experimentation is great fun.  Having a reliable, running system,
> > though, is mandatory.
> 
> Agreed. I've been running on a Band-Aid solution far too long. I need
> to get to the bottom of my hardware issues and redesign the system
> from the ground up.
> 
> > I thought Microsoft was no longer selling XP licenses, BTW.
> 
> Publicly, that's the policy. But in reality Microsoft is still
> publishing WinXP, commonly offshore or under a "buy a Vista license
> get a free copy of XP" regime. See e.g.,
> <http://apcmag.com/xp_still_killing_vista_in_sales_volume_hp.htm> and
> <http://apcmag.com/windows_xp_is_dead_long_live_windows_xp.htm>
> (Microsoft quietly extended XP support for three more years in June;
> "Mr Veghte gave the cryptic explanation that '...customers who still
> need Windows XP will be able to get it.'"
> 
> It's largely limited to major accounts and suppliers from all signs,
> but XP is reaching the market anyway. Ebay in particular seems to be
> the major online market for XP retail sales these days.
> 
> The Vista sales figures are reportedly pretty much meaningless because
> of the buy-Vista-get-XP-free stuff. Microsoft is in a hard spot.
> Removing XP from the market would spur OEM migration to Linux,
> particularly in the low-system resource PC market.
> 
> <tangent>
> 
> The vaporware is flowing for Singularity-derived Midori, a Microsoft
> cross-hardware platform (x86, x64 and ARM thus far) replacement for
> Windows that's also supposed to scale to cloud computing.
> <http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=32627>.
> 
> Microsoft is also in a bottleneck in cloud computing. Windows High
> Performance Cluster Server won't scale high enough. The Microsoft
> work-around for now is multiple instances of WinHPCS running atop
> Solaris and Sun x86-x64 hardware. Sun has a very groovy modular
> approach to building cloud computing data centers, data center modules
> in a shipping container.<http://www.sun.com/products/sunmd/s20/index.jsp>
> (Google has a potentially blocking patent, but reportedly there's tons
> of prior art. <http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,278,273.PN.&OS=PN/7,278,273&RS=PN/7,278,27>.
> 
> But the Sun-Microsoft deal expires in 2014. See the three April 1,
> 2004 agreements at
> <http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/709519/0001193125-04-155723-index.htm>.
>  And of course IBM wants a piece of the Solaris-based server farms
> Microsoft is building for its cloud computing initiative and
> proprietary assault on the open internet. See e.g.,
> <http://sun.systemnews.com/articles/114/3/news/18517>.
> 
> So my sniff is that Midori may be as much about the Microsoft
> bargaining position with Big Iron on the 2014 horizon as it is a plan
> to replace the NT-derived branch of Windows, particularly given
> Microsoft's history of vaporware.  Meanwhile, the enterprise market
> still yawns when it comes to cloud and grid computing.
> <http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9110329>.
> 
> I don't have enough sheep entrails to foresee how such events will play out.
> 
> </tangent>
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Paul
> 

silverlining2007 <at> gmail.com wrote:
> I know a couple of cuties in corporate sales who 
> somehow make the cut every time.
> 

I worked at a place that installed "security" cameras and of course so 
that Big Brother could keep tabs on people. One camera just happened to 
be a relative close-up of one particular desk, and lo and behold after 
the cameras went up some cute young thing ended up sitting there... then 
she got reassigned and another cutie showed up in that same desk... then 
the same thing happened again... the big boss man had remote access to 
the whole thing - lord only knows what he was doing on the other end...

mj

I use VMWare Server to run a linux VM so that I can run development tools there without a second machine. In
general, performance in the VM was fine. Max out your RAM. Specifically I like to do editing and all other
office stuff on Windows, but the toolchain and targets are Linux. One problem is that on the VM you
generally have access to virtual devices, not the real devices. For example, the LAN card in the VM is a
virtual generic LAN card. This means that some things might not work like normal, say dedicated keys for
volume control on your keyboard for example. I don't think I ever got my USB to DB9 serial adapter to work
inside the VM either. 

The Linux guest looks like another machine on the network. There are lots of options in setting up this
network. For example the LAN linking the host and guest machines can be entirely virtual. I generally keep
the data in the Windows file system and access it through Samba and a shared folder. This works except when
make files do tricky things like setting up symbolic links, which doesn't work on a share.

The biggest resource problem is that disks for the VMs must be carved out of your host's disks. With how cheap
HDs are now, just upgrade to the biggest you can find.

These comments apply specifically to VMWare. Other VM software may have different characteristics.

Cheers, Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: euglug-bounces <at> euglug.org [mailto:euglug-bounces <at> euglug.org] On Behalf Of marbux
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:35 PM
To: Eugene Unix and Gnu/Linux User Group
Subject: Re: [Eug-lug] Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Bob Miller <kbob <at> jogger-egg.com> wrote:
> You might also want to consider just getting another box.
> Keep one stable for real work, and play on the other.
>
> If your finances, living space, or briefcase won't support two whole
> computers, you could get one or more external USB hard drives and boot
> the experimental stuff on that.

Household management has shot down a second computer. Something about
decor.   I already tried with the fantasy of using a second box
parked upstairs for back-up purposes and having a substitute computer
for when this one goes wonky. But I could probably get away with an
external drive if I park it in my desktop shelving. However, I'd
really like to get away from dual-booting if I can.

> Aside from some magic grub configuration, Linux on a USB drive acts
> just linux on normal hardware.

Are read/write speeds comparable? I have a vague recollection of
someone saying USB hard drives suffer from lower data transfer rates.

That is NOT the case for virtual
> hosts.

I'd appreciate a short list of major losses in functionality. Running
Kubuntu Hardy on Virtual Box/WinXP has worked for me thus far, but I
haven't tried everything I might want to do and wouldn't want to box
myself in too tightly. And my fantasy is to in effect swap what is
host and what is guest.

> Experimentation is great fun.  Having a reliable, running system,
> though, is mandatory.

Agreed. I've been running on a Band-Aid solution far too long. I need
to get to the bottom of my hardware issues and redesign the system
from the ground up.

> I thought Microsoft was no longer selling XP licenses, BTW.

Publicly, that's the policy. But in reality Microsoft is still
publishing WinXP, commonly offshore or under a "buy a Vista license
get a free copy of XP" regime. See e.g.,
<http://apcmag.com/xp_still_killing_vista_in_sales_volume_hp.htm> and
<http://apcmag.com/windows_xp_is_dead_long_live_windows_xp.htm>
(Microsoft quietly extended XP support for three more years in June;
"Mr Veghte gave the cryptic explanation that '...customers who still
need Windows XP will be able to get it.'"

It's largely limited to major accounts and suppliers from all signs,
but XP is reaching the market anyway. Ebay in particular seems to be
the major online market for XP retail sales these days.

The Vista sales figures are reportedly pretty much meaningless because
of the buy-Vista-get-XP-free stuff. Microsoft is in a hard spot.
Removing XP from the market would spur OEM migration to Linux,
particularly in the low-system resource PC market.

<tangent>

The vaporware is flowing for Singularity-derived Midori, a Microsoft
cross-hardware platform (x86, x64 and ARM thus far) replacement for
Windows that's also supposed to scale to cloud computing.
<http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=32627>.

Microsoft is also in a bottleneck in cloud computing. Windows High
Performance Cluster Server won't scale high enough. The Microsoft
work-around for now is multiple instances of WinHPCS running atop
Solaris and Sun x86-x64 hardware. Sun has a very groovy modular
approach to building cloud computing data centers, data center modules
in a shipping container.<http://www.sun.com/products/sunmd/s20/index.jsp>
(Google has a potentially blocking patent, but reportedly there's tons
of prior art. <http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,278,273.PN.&OS=PN/7,278,273&RS=PN/7,278,27>.

But the Sun-Microsoft deal expires in 2014. See the three April 1,
2004 agreements at
<http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/709519/0001193125-04-155723-index.htm>.
 And of course IBM wants a piece of the Solaris-based server farms
Microsoft is building for its cloud computing initiative and
proprietary assault on the open internet. See e.g.,
<http://sun.systemnews.com/articles/114/3/news/18517>.

So my sniff is that Midori may be as much about the Microsoft
bargaining position with Big Iron on the 2014 horizon as it is a plan
to replace the NT-derived branch of Windows, particularly given
Microsoft's history of vaporware.  Meanwhile, the enterprise market
still yawns when it comes to cloud and grid computing.
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9110329>.

I don't have enough sheep entrails to foresee how such events will play out.

</tangent>

Best regards,

Paul

--

-- 
Universal Interoperability Council
<http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
_______________________________________________
EUGLUG mailing list
euglug <at> euglug.org
http://www.euglug.org/mailman/listinfo/euglug

I need to enable directory indexing in apache2 running on Debian Etch (4.0).

After much digging, I've discovered that the mod_autoindex module
required to enable this functionality is missing. Normally, this is
compiled into the binary directly, but an "apache2 -l" reveals that it
is not. It also is not listed in the mods-available  directory, nor is
there an obvious package for it in apt.

Any thoughts? This is really basic functionality which I've never seen
so completely removed before. I assume it's a Debian thing, but The
Google reveals nothing so far...

-_-?

--

-- 
-Regards-

-Quentin Hartman-

look in /etc/apache2/mods-enabled/
examine the contents of the file named autoindex.load

debians apache2 configuration is set up for the convenience of the
package manager,
you have commands to enable and disable modules and sites.

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Quentin Hartman <qhartman <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to enable directory indexing in apache2 running on Debian Etch (4.0).
>
> After much digging, I've discovered that the mod_autoindex module
> required to enable this functionality is missing. Normally, this is
> compiled into the binary directly, but an "apache2 -l" reveals that it
> is not. It also is not listed in the mods-available  directory, nor is
> there an obvious package for it in apt.
>
> Any thoughts? This is really basic functionality which I've never seen
> so completely removed before. I assume it's a Debian thing, but The
> Google reveals nothing so far...
>
> -_-?
>
> --
> -Regards-
>
> -Quentin Hartman-
> _______________________________________________
> EUGLUG mailing list
> euglug <at> euglug.org
> http://www.euglug.org/mailman/listinfo/euglug
>

>   [heinlein <at> monk ~]$ dpkg -L apache2.2-common | grep mod_autoindex
>   /usr/lib/apache2/modules/mod_autoindex.so

I finally got to this as well. Someone had removed the .load for it
from this machine. Copied it from another install, and we are in
business. Thanks for the attention!

--

-- 
-Regards-

-Quentin Hartman-

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:51 AM, Bob Crandell <bob <at> assuredcomp.com> wrote:
>From what I hear trying to access
> the data natively from mutilple OSs is asking for trouble.

Thanks for that bit of wisdom. I'll use it.

> VMs don't have the same access to hardware as the host OS so make sure
> the host can do anything you ever heard about doing so if you try to
> access some hardware device in a VM and it doesn't work you can still do
> it at the host level.  For example, not all USB devices are created
> equal.

Thanks. I had been thinking about using a compact Linux like Puppy for
the host. But it also seems like I'd have less to learn if I used
Kubuntu as both and the guest. I'm aiming to maximize my use of
virtual Linux and minimize my use of the host system, for stability
reasons.

Thanks again.

Best regards,

Paul

--

-- 
Universal Interoperability Council
<http:www.universal-interop-council.org>

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Bob Carlson <bob <at> rjcarlson.com> wrote:

> Max out your RAM.

That's on my list. I'm running 2 gigs now and sometimes need to shut
down apps to boot into the VM. But I have replacement RAM ordered so I
can jump to 4 Gigs.

> Specifically I like to do editing and all other office stuff on Windows, but the toolchain and targets are Linux.

My needs have changed since I retired. Nearly all of my writing these
days is for the web, so Windows is more something I just need
available for those occasions when I really need WordPerfect. E.g., I
occasionally draft amicus briefs for cases in which the public
interest is involved.

> One problem is that on the VM you generally have access to virtual devices, not the real devices.

That's helpful to know.

> The Linux guest looks like another machine on the network. There are lots of options in setting up this
network. For example the LAN linking the host and guest machines can be entirely virtual. I generally keep
the data in the Windows file system and access it through Samba and a shared folder. This works except when
make files do tricky things like setting up symbolic links, which doesn't work on a share.

I may need to experiment with having a shared partitition for some
data where I need symbolic links. But yours is the second vote for
networking, so I'll aim for that for the bulk of the data.

> The biggest resource problem is that disks for the VMs must be carved out of your host's disks. With how
cheap HDs are now, just upgrade to the biggest you can find.

Not an issue for me yet. I've got a 300 gig SATA drive less than 30
per cent full, plus a 160-gig EIDE not presently in use. (I don't
ordinarily store music or videos on my system, so lots of room.)

Thanks, Bob.

Best regards,

Paul

--

-- 
Universal Interoperability Council
<http:www.universal-interop-council.org>

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Re: JOB: Symantec is hiring some folks

Re: Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

Re: Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

Re: JOB: Symantec is hiring some folks

RE: Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

Apache2 Directory indexing in Etch not possible?

Re: Apache2 Directory indexing in Etch not possible?

Re: [PLUG] Apache2 Directory indexing in Etch not possible?

Re: Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

Re: Sanity check on system rebuild fantasy

Mon	Tue	Wed	Thu	Fri	Sat	Sun

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