Dennis Sosnoski | 1 Sep 04:45 2007

Re: Microsoft buys the Swedish vote on OOXML?

It's now clear that bribery *was* part of the process, with the emails
from Microsoft promising extra "marketing contributions" as a payoff for
voting for Open XML:
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/F36E6AC141F8C10ECC2573470074B795

Anyone know if Karl Rove is now consulting for Microsoft?

  - Dennis

Jonathan Robie wrote:
> Len Bullard wrote:
>> The author of that article is on dangerous legal ground.
>>
>> "One would think that SIS would not accept new companies to
>> participate in
>> the vote since they haven't been part of the earlier discussions and
>> meetings. But according to SIS they didn't see any problem that new
>> companies wanted to take part in this vote without prior notice. So what
>> happened here is that Microsoft gather together a bunch of loyal
>> partners
>> that would vote yes to their standard without any questions."
>>
>> None of that other than the time they signed up is supported by
>> evidence.
>> It is more likely that Microsoft partners vote for this submission
>> for the
>> same reason Massachusetts changed the position given switching
>> costs.  This
>> is self-interest.  No proof of bribery is shown.  There is no indication
>> that questions have not been asked.  Continuing to make that charge in
(Continue reading)

Mark C. Allman | 1 Sep 05:05 2007

Political opinions and this list

Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed to read about XML topics.

Thanks.

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP
-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263

BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.
Len Bullard | 1 Sep 17:25 2007
Picon

RE: Microsoft buys the Swedish vote on OOXML?

Matusow indicated that it was being rectified.   I doubt that it was MS
policy.  Probably one very eager beaver.   Still, point made. 

Standards are becoming a sordid business.  If this goes as other events
have, someone will dig up bribery on the other side.  And so it will go.

Rick Jeliffe made a good point:  the  anti-OOXMLers are not the same as the
anti-MS crowd.  The pro-ODFers are not the same as the anti-MS crowd.  The
pro-OOXMLers are not the same as the pro-MS and so on.  The problem is the
news worthy events are the extremes of the polarities.

The losers are the customers.  A tar ball dirties not only those it hits,
but the hands that pick it up to throw it.

len

From: Dennis Sosnoski [mailto:dms <at> sosnoski.com] 

It's now clear that bribery *was* part of the process, with the emails
from Microsoft promising extra "marketing contributions" as a payoff for
voting for Open XML:
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/F36E6AC141F8C10ECC2573470074B795

Anyone know if Karl Rove is now consulting for Microsoft?

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Len Bullard | 1 Sep 17:30 2007
Picon

RE: Political opinions and this list

Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of choice.   Delete and endure.

 

len

 


From: Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]

 

Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed to read about XML topics.

Thanks.

 

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP

-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.

-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263

 

BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.

 

John F Covin | 1 Sep 18:13 2007

RE: Political opinions and this list

I agree with Mark Allman. I understand your sentiment, Len. However, shouldn’t there be a better forum for those developing the standards to discuss this particular behind-the-scenes detail of what goes on to develop the standards? I do not see how a discussion of this aspect of the standard process helps the community at large that is interested only in learning about how to understand and use the technology.

 

Passing it along in this forum seems to be perpetuating the ‘tar ball’ so to speak.

 

John

 

From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard <at> hiwaay.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:31 AM
To: mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list

 

Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of choice.   Delete and endure.

 

len

 


From: Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]

 

Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed to read about XML topics.

Thanks.

 

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP

-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.

-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263

 

BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.

 

Mark C. Allman | 1 Sep 18:27 2007

RE: Political opinions and this list

My point is that this isn't the forum for digs at Microsoft, Democrats, Republicans, IBM, Oracle, Google, Socialists, etc., etc.  There are other places to vent frustrations.  It distracts from the topic at hand.

BTW, this is just a request.  To Len's point: yea, it's a part of business.  I "do the dance" as part of my job as a project manager.  A necessary evil.  It'd just be a bit of a relief not to have to skip over cheap shots here as well.

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP
-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263

BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.

On Sat, 2007-09-01 at 12:13 -0400, John F Covin wrote:
I agree with Mark Allman. I understand your sentiment, Len. However, shouldn’t there be a better forum for those developing the standards to discuss this particular behind-the-scenes detail of what goes on to develop the standards? I do not see how a discussion of this aspect of the standard process helps the community at large that is interested only in learning about how to understand and use the technology.

 

Passing it along in this forum seems to be perpetuating the ‘tar ball’ so to speak.

 

John

 

From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard <at> hiwaay.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:31 AM
To: mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list


 

Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of choice.   Delete and endure.

 

len

 


From: Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]

 

Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed to read about XML topics.

Thanks.

 

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP


-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.


-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263



 




BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.



 



Elliotte Harold | 1 Sep 20:13 2007
Picon

Re: Political opinions and this list

Mark C. Allman wrote:
> My point is that this isn't the forum for digs at Microsoft, Democrats, 
> Republicans, IBM, Oracle, Google, Socialists, etc., etc.  There are 
> other places to vent frustrations.  It distracts from the topic at hand.
> 

Those are two different issues, and attempting to conflate them in my 
mind eliminates the argument. Digs at Microsoft, Google, and others who 
are actually relevant to the topic of this list are very acceptable. As 
long as the Democrats and Republicans don't know or care what XML is, 
then that should be off-list.

--

-- 
Elliotte Rusty Harold  elharo <at> metalab.unc.edu
Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published!
http://www.cafeaulait.org/books/javaio2/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596527500/ref=nosim/cafeaulaitA/

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Dennis Sosnoski | 1 Sep 22:49 2007

Re: Political opinions and this list

I personally apologize for dragging Karl Rove in on the OOXML thread,
which I gather was the cause of this plea. From my standpoint it was a
succinct way of suggesting that the types of political practices which
have become common in U.S. politics over the last 8 years or so now seem
to be expanding into the area of XML standards.

As for the rest of the thread, I think it's entirely appropriate. We
have a case where a new XML standard is being considered, and the
processes that are being used to establish that standard are certainly
germane to this list.

  - Dennis

Dennis M. Sosnoski
SOA and Web Services in Java
Training and Consulting
http://www.sosnoski.com - http://www.sosnoski.co.nz
Seattle, WA +1-425-939-0576 - Wellington, NZ +64-4-298-6117

Mark C. Allman wrote:
> My point is that this isn't the forum for digs at Microsoft,
> Democrats, Republicans, IBM, Oracle, Google, Socialists, etc., etc. 
> There are other places to vent frustrations.  It distracts from the
> topic at hand.
>
> BTW, this is just a request.  To Len's point: yea, it's a part of
> business.  I "do the dance" as part of my job as a project manager.  A
> necessary evil.  It'd just be a bit of a relief not to have to skip
> over cheap shots here as well.
>
> -- *Mark C. Allman, PMP*
> -- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
> -- www.allmanpc.com <http://www.allmanpc.com>, 617-947-4263
>
> 	
>
> *BusinessMsg* -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.
>
> On Sat, 2007-09-01 at 12:13 -0400, John F Covin wrote:
>> I agree with Mark Allman. I understand your sentiment, Len. However,
>> shouldn’t there be a better forum for those developing the standards
>> to discuss this particular behind-the-scenes detail of what goes on
>> to develop the standards? I do not see how a discussion of this
>> aspect of the standard process helps the community at large that is
>> interested only in learning about how to understand and use the
>> technology.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Passing it along in this forum seems to be perpetuating the ‘tar
>> ball’ so to speak.
>>
>>  
>>
>> John
>>
>>  
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard <at> hiwaay.net]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:31 AM
>> *To:* mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
>> *Subject:* RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of
>> choice.   Delete and endure.
>>
>>  
>>
>> len
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]
>>
>>  
>>
>> Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed
>> to read about XML topics.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>  
>>
>> -- *Mark C. Allman, PMP*
>>
>>
>> -- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
>>
>>
>> -- www.allmanpc.com <http://www.allmanpc.com>, 617-947-4263
>>
>>
>>
>> 	
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *BusinessMsg* -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC
>> solution.
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>

_______________________________________________________________________

XML-DEV is a publicly archived, unmoderated list hosted by OASIS
to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.

[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
Or unsubscribe: xml-dev-unsubscribe <at> lists.xml.org
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John F Covin | 2 Sep 04:06 2007

RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list

I believe the vast majority (though I do not know for sure) of participants
of this thread are not standards developers nor follow the process very
closely. Clearly some (maybe many) do and in that regard the comments are
very appropriate.

I contend there is probably a better place for those in the know to let it
all loose regarding the process of developing the standard and the politics
of it all.

I presume those of interested in learning about how to use this technology
do not really need to know that much detail about how it comes about.

I have seen this on other forums as well - on any forum, it seems to be okay
to bash somebody. But it certainly does dilute the useful information that
one can take action on to better their understanding of the technology.

Just MHO

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Sosnoski [mailto:dms <at> sosnoski.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 4:50 PM
To: mcallman <at> allmanpc.com
Cc: xml-dev
Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list

I personally apologize for dragging Karl Rove in on the OOXML thread,
which I gather was the cause of this plea. From my standpoint it was a
succinct way of suggesting that the types of political practices which
have become common in U.S. politics over the last 8 years or so now seem
to be expanding into the area of XML standards.

As for the rest of the thread, I think it's entirely appropriate. We
have a case where a new XML standard is being considered, and the
processes that are being used to establish that standard are certainly
germane to this list.

  - Dennis

Dennis M. Sosnoski
SOA and Web Services in Java
Training and Consulting
http://www.sosnoski.com - http://www.sosnoski.co.nz
Seattle, WA +1-425-939-0576 - Wellington, NZ +64-4-298-6117

Mark C. Allman wrote:
> My point is that this isn't the forum for digs at Microsoft,
> Democrats, Republicans, IBM, Oracle, Google, Socialists, etc., etc. 
> There are other places to vent frustrations.  It distracts from the
> topic at hand.
>
> BTW, this is just a request.  To Len's point: yea, it's a part of
> business.  I "do the dance" as part of my job as a project manager.  A
> necessary evil.  It'd just be a bit of a relief not to have to skip
> over cheap shots here as well.
>
> -- *Mark C. Allman, PMP*
> -- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
> -- www.allmanpc.com <http://www.allmanpc.com>, 617-947-4263
>
> 	
>
> *BusinessMsg* -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.
>
> On Sat, 2007-09-01 at 12:13 -0400, John F Covin wrote:
>> I agree with Mark Allman. I understand your sentiment, Len. However,
>> shouldn't there be a better forum for those developing the standards
>> to discuss this particular behind-the-scenes detail of what goes on
>> to develop the standards? I do not see how a discussion of this
>> aspect of the standard process helps the community at large that is
>> interested only in learning about how to understand and use the
>> technology.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Passing it along in this forum seems to be perpetuating the 'tar
>> ball' so to speak.
>>
>>  
>>
>> John
>>
>>  
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard <at> hiwaay.net]
>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:31 AM
>> *To:* mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
>> *Subject:* RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of
>> choice.   Delete and endure.
>>
>>  
>>
>> len
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]
>>
>>  
>>
>> Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed
>> to read about XML topics.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>  
>>
>> -- *Mark C. Allman, PMP*
>>
>>
>> -- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.
>>
>>
>> -- www.allmanpc.com <http://www.allmanpc.com>, 617-947-4263
>>
>>
>>
>> 	
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *BusinessMsg* -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC
>> solution.
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>

_______________________________________________________________________

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to support XML implementation and development. To minimize
spam in the archives, you must subscribe before posting.

[Un]Subscribe/change address: http://www.oasis-open.org/mlmanage/
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Len Bullard | 2 Sep 04:26 2007
Picon

RE: Political opinions and this list

One, you and Mr. Allman seem to skip past the point that is was another poster that began to list the articles here.

 

Two, part of the idea of open lists is to discuss items related to the standard openly.   OO (XML).

 

Three, this list has a long history of open discussion on a wide range of topics and you should familiarize yourselves with the history of a list before you attempt to direct it away from topics you personally find discomforting.

 

Since you are both newcomers, learn the ropes.

 

Delete and endure. 

 

len

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John F Covin [mailto:johnfcovin <at> familymedialab.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:13 AM
To: 'Len Bullard'; mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list

 

I agree with Mark Allman. I understand your sentiment, Len. However, shouldn’t there be a better forum for those developing the standards to discuss this particular behind-the-scenes detail of what goes on to develop the standards? I do not see how a discussion of this aspect of the standard process helps the community at large that is interested only in learning about how to understand and use the technology.

 

Passing it along in this forum seems to be perpetuating the ‘tar ball’ so to speak.

 

John

 

From: Len Bullard [mailto:cbullard <at> hiwaay.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:31 AM
To: mcallman <at> allmanpc.com; xml-dev <at> lists.xml.org
Subject: RE: [xml-dev] Political opinions and this list

 

Politics are part of business and standards have become a weapon of choice.   Delete and endure.

 

len

 


From: Mark C. Allman [mailto:mcallman <at> allmanpc.com]

 

Could we please keep the political jabs off this list?  I subscribed to read about XML topics.

Thanks.

 

-- Mark C. Allman, PMP

-- Allman Professional Consulting, Inc.

-- www.allmanpc.com, 617-947-4263

 

BusinessMsg -- the secure, managed, J2EE/AJAX Enterprise IM/IC solution.

 


Gmane