app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi all,

We are wondering about the advantage to convert already encoded variant 
footnotes as app/(lem|rdg). It seems that the default XSL tei pack 
(SourceForge) provide an HTML view very similar to footnotes, except the 
link to the witness(es).

Has some one already tried other kind of views around the <app> 
encodings ? A pointer to an internet page is welcome to see useful 
effects on screen (be sure we will not give the link all around the 
world). Of course we understand that those kind of features may be very 
corpus specific. We are very close to be convinced to invest this time, 
it needs only a little picture to see what can be done with those tags.

Thanks in advance for your ideas or pointers.

--

-- 
Frédéric Glorieux,
École nationale des chartes

Re: app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi,
you can see an example under http://nl.ijs.si/e-zrc/izidor/index-en.html
Here two editions of a book are encoded via <app>, and the HTML provides 
one or the other or the differences between them. The tei and xslt are on 
the web, but it is P4.

A set of very nice xslt stylesheets to present <app> encoded texts is of 
course http://v-machine.org/

Best,
Tomaz

Frédéric Glorieux (École nationale des chartes) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> We are wondering about the advantage to convert already encoded variant 
> footnotes as app/(lem|rdg). It seems that the default XSL tei pack 
> (SourceForge) provide an HTML view very similar to footnotes, except the 
> link to the witness(es).
> 
> Has some one already tried other kind of views around the <app> 
> encodings ? A pointer to an internet page is welcome to see useful 
> effects on screen (be sure we will not give the link all around the 
> world). Of course we understand that those kind of features may be very 
> corpus specific. We are very close to be convinced to invest this time, 
> it needs only a little picture to see what can be done with those tags.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your ideas or pointers.
> 

Re: app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi TEIers.

We have also been working a little bit on the rendering of apparatus as 
part of Carmen Arronis's PhD thesis.

I assume that Frédéric refers to the parallel-segmentation method with 
all the witnesses encoded in the same file.

We have been working on a way to render app/(lem|rdg) structures as 
footnotes in LaTeX, because we wanted to produce printed (PDF) editions 
with apparatus from our XML files.  Most of our work is already 
incorporated to the TEI XSL stylesheets, but it is still incomplete and 
experimental and we should retake the work. I haven't checked the HTML 
stylesheets for a long time. Maybe we can learn from what is there.

Three years ago we used a crude way to view apparatus directly using a 
different CSS stylesheet for each version, so that a particular edition 
could be shown by selecting a special CSS stylesheet for that one (lem, 
1, 2, or 3) using the browser menu (see for instance 
http://tintadellamp.ua.es/biblioteca/proces_olives.xml). We were working 
on a way to generate a pop-up menu when clicking on a segment affected 
by apparatus, but haven't got too far. Tomaz Erjavec's solution is much 
better. And yes, there is also the Versioning Machine, which I find 
quite impressive.

We'll be happy to collaborate in any endeavour related to rendering 
apparatus in HTML or LaTeX. But I believe we have to do a bit of 
homework first!

Mikel L. Forcada

Computational linguistics criticism

Dear TEI-L,

I wonder if anyone could give me a few pointers on a literature hunt?
I'm trying to get into the literature which examines the impact of
computational techniques on humanities disciplines, especially
musicology, but also literary studies as a comparison. I'm interested
in what anyone may have said about uptake of techniques amongst
scholars, the kinds of outputs that scholars using technology are
producing, and especially criticism of the idea of constructing
humanities databases. While I've found a few things for musicology,
I'm a bit stuck as to where to look for such a critical analysis of
computational linguistics (digital textual scholarship, etc.).

Any pointers?

Best,
Richard
--

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Richard Lewis
ISMS, Computing
Goldsmiths, University of London
Tel: +44 (0)20 7078 5134
Skype: richardjlewis
JID: ironchicken <at> jabber.earth.li
http://www.richard-lewis.me.uk/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
+-------------------------------------------------------+
|Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.|
|http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html |

Re: Computational linguistics criticism

Richard,
If you're interested in the more philosophical side of digital
humanities, I'd recommend the work of Willard McCarthy and N. Katherine
Hayles. I can't give you suggestions about databases.

Linda Patrik

-----Original Message-----
From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list
[mailto:TEI-L <at> listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 11:37 AM
To: TEI-L <at> listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Computational linguistics criticism

Dear TEI-L,

I wonder if anyone could give me a few pointers on a literature hunt?
I'm trying to get into the literature which examines the impact of
computational techniques on humanities disciplines, especially
musicology, but also literary studies as a comparison. I'm interested
in what anyone may have said about uptake of techniques amongst
scholars, the kinds of outputs that scholars using technology are
producing, and especially criticism of the idea of constructing
humanities databases. While I've found a few things for musicology,
I'm a bit stuck as to where to look for such a critical analysis of
computational linguistics (digital textual scholarship, etc.).

Any pointers?

Best,

Re: app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi Tomaz,

Thanks a lot for these fully open files. The lesson of your project is 
for us that we are not able to recreate the witnesses, because the 
original edition was thought by paper philologists. They have noted most 
interesting variants, but not all. We have learn the lesson for new 
projects, that's why we decided to use <app> for those notes, to find 
our tagging style on this topic for the future.

--
Frédéric

> Hi,
> you can see an example under http://nl.ijs.si/e-zrc/izidor/index-en.html
> Here two editions of a book are encoded via <app>, and the HTML provides 
> one or the other or the differences between them. The tei and xslt are 
> on the web, but it is P4.
> 
> A set of very nice xslt stylesheets to present <app> encoded texts is of 
> course http://v-machine.org/
> 
> Best,
> Tomaz
> 
> Frédéric Glorieux (École nationale des chartes) wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We are wondering about the advantage to convert already encoded 
>> variant footnotes as app/(lem|rdg). It seems that the default XSL tei 
>> pack (SourceForge) provide an HTML view very similar to footnotes, 

Re: app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi Mikel,

Your « crude way » is simple and clever. About « using the browser menu 
», I only found this feature in Internet Explorer, did I miss something ?

What we discovered with the example of Tomaz is that convert critical 
apparatus notes will not be sufficient to generate witnesses if all 
variants have not been encoded. So this kind of reconstructions is not a 
good direction for us (for now). In spite this fact, we start to encode, 
because all these footnotes are sometimes heavy on screen, so we will 
search for alternative view. We will inform the list when we will have 
something to show on screen.

Already thanks to all.

--
Frédéric Glorieux

> Hi TEIers.
> 
> We have also been working a little bit on the rendering of apparatus as 
> part of Carmen Arronis's PhD thesis.
> 
> I assume that Frédéric refers to the parallel-segmentation method with 
> all the witnesses encoded in the same file.
> 
> We have been working on a way to render app/(lem|rdg) structures as 
> footnotes in LaTeX, because we wanted to produce printed (PDF) editions 
> with apparatus from our XML files.  Most of our work is already 
> incorporated to the TEI XSL stylesheets, but it is still incomplete and 

In witness, why not repository and idno ?

Good evening TextEncodersInitiate,

   We've got a problem with this kind of pages
http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/cartulaires/laroche/page447/
   It's an edition of charters. My question is about lines like that

(Archiv. de l'Emp., LL. 1157. — Cartul. de Saint-Denis, p. 570.)

   It should be the manuscript witness used to edit the transcription. 
There are sometimes more witnesses, and maybe notes about variants and 
lessons from those, so that the <witness> could be a good idea.
   From our digitization company and our scripts, we get something a bit 
like that :

<witness>(<hi rend="i">Archiv. de l'Emp.</hi>, <num>LL. 1157.</num> — 
<hi rend="i">Cartul. de Saint-Denis</hi>, <abbr>p.</abbr> 
<num>571.</num>)</witness>

   We are agree this is not TEI correct (with good reasons <hi> is not 
allowed in <witness>), but, our partner is not able to disambiguate 
italic, so, we have to do it. What could be the right way then ? A fast 
trash solution is to replace these <hi> by <emph> (which is allowed). 
There are still problems in this kind of things

<witness>(<emph>Archives de Seine-et-Oise</emph>, Chevreuse, 37<hi 
rend="sup">e</hi> liasse.)</witness>

   A better way could be to search a more semantic solution. Listening 
only to definition of elements, we would be glad to encode that :

DC-2009 Last days for Online Registration

Re: app/rdg, some screen ideas ?

Hi Fréderic et al.:

Frédéric wrote:
>
> Your « crude way » is simple and clever. About « using the browser 
> menu », I only found this feature in Internet Explorer, did I miss 
> something ?
I don't know about Internet Explorer (I'm a happy GNU/Linux user), but 
in Firefox, in the View menu (third tab after File and Edit), there is a 
Page Style option that lets you choose any of the stylesheets associated 
to the XML file.

I said this was crude because the CSS stylesheets we have are using are 
all equal except for a hard-coded part, which for sytlesheet 
arronis1.css reads

rdg[wit~="1"] { background-color : yellow ; display : inline }

We didn't know a lot about CSS then and we just wanted a proof of 
concept but I am completely sure that this could be nicely factorized so 
that the common part is in a file and the variable part for each witness 
is somehow automatically generated from the XML file by parsing the 
<app> elements.

Also, we were aware that CSS is not powerful enough for most of the 
things we wanted to do, so we didn't pursue that much further.

> What we discovered with the example of Tomaz is that convert critical 
> apparatus notes will not be sufficient to generate witnesses if all 
> variants have not been encoded. So this kind of reconstructions is not 
> a good direction for us (for now). In spite this fact, we start to 
> encode, because all these footnotes are sometimes heavy on screen, so 
> we will search for alternative view. We will inform the list when we 
> will have something to show on screen.
I'm not sure I understand the problem. If the editor of the paper 
edition you are trying to electronically encode wrote only footnotes and 
was not thorough when informing about witnesses, I'm sure you can always 
use the base edition as <lem> and give the witness information present 
in the footnotes, by declaring somewhere (where?) that witness 
information is incomplete. But such an edition would still be very 
useful even if the encoding of witnesses is not thorough, and makes it 
possible for someone to complete the apparatus in the future.

Thanks

Mikel
>> Hi TEIers.
>>
>> We have also been working a little bit on the rendering of apparatus 
>> as part of Carmen Arronis's PhD thesis.
>>
>> I assume that Frédéric refers to the parallel-segmentation method 
>> with all the witnesses encoded in the same file.
>>
>> We have been working on a way to render app/(lem|rdg) structures as 
>> footnotes in LaTeX, because we wanted to produce printed (PDF) 
>> editions with apparatus from our XML files.  Most of our work is 
>> already incorporated to the TEI XSL stylesheets, but it is still 
>> incomplete and experimental and we should retake the work. I haven't 
>> checked the HTML stylesheets for a long time. Maybe we can learn from 
>> what is there.
>>
>> Three years ago we used a crude way to view apparatus directly using 
>> a different CSS stylesheet for each version, so that a particular 
>> edition could be shown by selecting a special CSS stylesheet for that 
>> one (lem, 1, 2, or 3) using the browser menu (see for instance 
>> http://tintadellamp.ua.es/biblioteca/proces_olives.xml). We were 
>> working on a way to generate a pop-up menu when clicking on a segment 
>> affected by apparatus, but haven't got too far. Tomaz Erjavec's 
>> solution is much better. And yes, there is also the Versioning 
>> Machine, which I find quite impressive.
>>
>> We'll be happy to collaborate in any endeavour related to rendering 
>> apparatus in HTML or LaTeX. But I believe we have to do a bit of 
>> homework first!
>>
>> Mikel L. Forcada
>> Universitat d'Alacant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> En/na Frédéric Glorieux (École nationale des chartes) ha escrit:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We are wondering about the advantage to convert already encoded 
>>> variant footnotes as app/(lem|rdg). It seems that the default XSL 
>>> tei pack (SourceForge) provide an HTML view very similar to 
>>> footnotes, except the link to the witness(es).
>>>
>>> Has some one already tried other kind of views around the <app> 
>>> encodings ? A pointer to an internet page is welcome to see useful 
>>> effects on screen (be sure we will not give the link all around the 
>>> world). Of course we understand that those kind of features may be 
>>> very corpus specific. We are very close to be convinced to invest 
>>> this time, it needs only a little picture to see what can be done 
>>> with those tags.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for your ideas or pointers.
>>>