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Roberto Rosselli Del Turco | 2 Feb 2004 14:11
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About abbreviations and corrections, again

Hi all,
a little question about <abbr>/<expan> usage, hope you haven't had
enough about it already (and that it doesn't look too naive to all the
TEI experts out there). I'm transcribing a medieval manuscript, and
started by using <abbr> with the expan attribute, like this:

<abbr expan="mannum" type="">mannū</abbr>

I then realized that this way it was going to be very difficult to
follow editorial practice (highlighting expanded letters using italics)
and that it will require a considerable effort to update my
transcription to the forthcoming TEI P5 standard. I considered using
entities as suggested in the TEI guidelines (6.4.5), but I don't like
very much this approach and the P5 transition problem would persist. So
I thought about using <abbr> and <expan> in the same way as the
<add><del> pair, i.e. like this:

mann<abbr>Å«</abbr><expan>um</expan>

I can now write a simple style sheet according to the kind of diplomatic
edition I want to output from my text, keeping the content of <abbr> "as
is" for a conservative edition, or printing the content of <expan> in
italics for a more interpretative one. Furthermore, I will be able to
make my document P5 compliant with a simple search and replace of <abbr>
and </expan>. So, is there any disadvantage I didn't think of? Could I
use the same "trick" with <sic> and <corr>?

BTW, what happened to the manuscript transcription SIG? I've been
waiting for an announcement but either missed it or it never appeared to
the list. Would be another appropriate place where to discuss about this
(Continue reading)

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Geoffrey Rockwell | 2 Feb 2004 16:17
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Geoffrey Rockwell
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Daniel O'Donnell | 2 Feb 2004 16:42
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

Hi Roberto,

I'm hoping this is the recommended way, personally. It is certainly how
I do it. All these pairs that seem to rely on position cause problems,
of course. You can always use the corresp and ID attributes to make the
relationship between expansion and contraction explicit if there is an
opportunity for confusion (as there might be for example if you had a
string of distinct contractions and abbreviations in a long word).

Cheers.

-dan

Roberto Rosselli Del Turco wrote:

>Hi all,
>a little question about <abbr>/<expan> usage, hope you haven't had
>enough about it already (and that it doesn't look too naive to all the
>TEI experts out there). I'm transcribing a medieval manuscript, and
>started by using <abbr> with the expan attribute, like this:
>
><abbr expan="mannum" type="">mannū</abbr>
>
>I then realized that this way it was going to be very difficult to
>follow editorial practice (highlighting expanded letters using italics)
>and that it will require a considerable effort to update my
>transcription to the forthcoming TEI P5 standard. I considered using
>entities as suggested in the TEI guidelines (6.4.5), but I don't like
>very much this approach and the P5 transition problem would persist. So
>I thought about using <abbr> and <expan> in the same way as the
(Continue reading)

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James Cummings | 2 Feb 2004 17:14
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Daniel O'Donnell wrote:

> Hi Roberto,
>
> I'm hoping this is the recommended way, personally. It is certainly how
> I do it. All these pairs that seem to rely on position cause problems,
> of course. You can always use the corresp and ID attributes to make the
> relationship between expansion and contraction explicit if there is an
> opportunity for confusion (as there might be for example if you had a
> string of distinct contractions and abbreviations in a long word).

Hi Daniel/Roberto,

Wouldn't it be better to wrap the <abbr> and <expan> in a <seg> or
<ab> or something?  So instead of:

> >mann<abbr>«</abbr><expan>um</expan>

something like:

Mann<ab type="abbrev"><abbr>Ã…</abbr><expan>um</expan></ab>

or indeed if encoding at such a level:

<w>Mann<ab type="abbrev"><abbr>Ã…</abbr><expan>um</expan></ab></w>

I guess what I'm concerned about is the opportunity for confusion
that you note with a string of disctinct contractions/abbreviations
in a long word.  Using <ab> (if that is indeed the correct thing
to use?) you at least know that everytime you come across
(Continue reading)

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Daniel O'Donnell | 2 Feb 2004 18:06
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

I've been a long advocate of wrapping things!  Sometime ago, for
example, I proposed something along the lines of
<corr><del></del><add></add></corr>, which met with some approval. The
only problem with it, however, is that wrapping depends on elements
being contiguous. An example is the <cit> tag, which can be used to wrap
a quotation and its source, but not if any CDATA separates the two. So

<cit><q>Well hello Wisconsin</q><bibl>That Seventies Show</bibl></cit>

is legal, but

<cit><q>well,</q> he said, <q>Hello Wisconsin</q><bibl>That Seventies
Show</bibl></cit>

is not, even though there isn't really any serious difference between
the two in terms of content or intention.

Desmond Schmidt's recent question about inversions and other
discontinuous corrections points out another problem with the
containment model.

-dan

James Cummings wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Daniel O'Donnell wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hi Roberto,
(Continue reading)

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Roberto Rosselli Del Turco | 2 Feb 2004 19:38
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

Il lun, 2004-02-02 alle 17:14, James Cummings ha scritto:
>
> Hi Daniel/Roberto,
>
> Wouldn't it be better to wrap the <abbr> and <expan> in a <seg> or
> <ab> or something?

[...]

Yes, that would be the perfect solution. I proposed something similar
some time ago (<abbr><unexpan>&et;<unexpan><expan>and</expan></abbr>).

>  I wouldn't really
> be worried about it as long as the encoder is consistent, of course.

That, and the fact that abbreviations in OE are quite regular (at least
they are in the ms I'm working on), convinced me that I could do with a
simpler solution. Again, if it proves flawed in some way, I can resort
to a "container" type solution with a simple search and replace.

> This is, of course, the perfect situation for Lou's <choice> (or
> whatever) element hopefully appearing in P5.

Definitely.

Ciao

--
Roberto Rosselli Del Turco      roberto.rossellidelturco at unito.it
Dipartimento di Scienze         rosselli at ling.unipi.it
(Continue reading)

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BODARD Gabriel | 2 Feb 2004 19:45
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, James Cummings wrote:

> Wouldn't it be better to wrap the <abbr> and <expan> in a <seg> or
> <ab> or something?  So instead of:
(snip)
> something like:
> <w>Mann<ab type="abbrev"><abbr>Å</abbr><expan>um</expan></ab></w>

This might work (although of course <ab> is block-level so couldn't fit
here, but <seg> might). My preferred solution is slightly
simpler-- something like:

<abbr>Mann<expan>um</expan></abbr>

This doesn't, in its current form, preserve the symbol which stands for
'um' in this word, but it does allow us to call up 'Mann' as the
abbreviation for Mann(um). An attribute of the <expan> element is used
to represent the abbreviation symbol, so <expan rend="common"> uel
sim. The other possiblity I suggested a while back was an attribute like
<orig> for the symbol, but that didn't seem to be taken up. That would
give us something like:

<abbr>Mann<orig>Å</orig><expan>um</expan></abbr>

Still happy to receive comments on this.

> This is, of course, the perfect situation for Lou's <choice> (or
> whatever) element hopefully appearing in P5.

Indeed, this is what I've been trying to pre-empt, as it were, in the
(Continue reading)

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Tim Finney | 3 Feb 2004 14:15
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

There was a recent discussion which raised the possibility of using a
structure like this:

<choice>
    <option type="abbr">mann&umacron;</option>
    <option type="expan">mannum</option>
</choice>

Would it be possible to add this to the P5 schemas as an experimental
facility?

Best

Tim Finney

Roberto Rosselli Del Turco wrote:

>Hi all,
>a little question about <abbr>/<expan> usage, hope you haven't had
>enough about it already (and that it doesn't look too naive to all the
>TEI experts out there). I'm transcribing a medieval manuscript, and
>started by using <abbr> with the expan attribute, like this:
>
><abbr expan="mannum" type="">mannū</abbr>
>
>I then realized that this way it was going to be very difficult to
>follow editorial practice (highlighting expanded letters using italics)
>and that it will require a considerable effort to update my
>transcription to the forthcoming TEI P5 standard. I considered using
>entities as suggested in the TEI guidelines (6.4.5), but I don't like
(Continue reading)

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Sebastian Rahtz | 3 Feb 2004 14:12
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Re: About abbreviations and corrections, again

Tim Finney wrote:
> There was a recent discussion which raised the possibility of using a
> structure like this:
>
> <choice>
>     <option type="abbr">mann&umacron;</option>
>     <option type="expan">mannum</option>
> </choice>
>
> Would it be possible to add this to the P5 schemas as an experimental
> facility?

Better, someone could write an example schema which pulled
in P5 and made this change. Its not entirely clear to me
what is affected. do we drop abbr and expan, and make choice
a possible choice where they were allowed before?

If you are using the P5 schems, think in terms of layers and
layers of schemas which do overrides. its much more natural
in RelaxNG than DTD, I think.

--
Sebastian Rahtz      Information Manager
Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Hans G. Ehrbar | 3 Feb 2004 14:29
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About abbreviations and corrections, again

While we are at the subject: can this choice structure
also be used for page breaks which fall inside a word?
For instance

<choice>
    <option type="xxxx">reconstituted</option>
    <option type="yyyy">reconsti- <pb n="77"> tuted</option>
</choice>

What would be good keywords for "xxxx" and "yyyy" here?
(Hello to all; this is my first posting to this list.)

Hans.

--
Hans G. Ehrbar   http://www.econ.utah.edu/ehrbar   ehrbar <at> econ.utah.edu
Economics Department, University of Utah     (801) 581 7797 (my office)
1645 Campus Center Dr., Rm 308               (801) 581 7481 (econ office)
Salt Lake City    UT 84112-9300              (801) 585 5649 (FAX)
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