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Phil Richardson | 1 Sep 2011 16:19
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Iron Five 2011 Unseeded team places open for entry

Good afternoon BD, ED and Uni Ultimate,

After a tough selection process 16 Wild Cards have been drawn for Iron Five 2011 to join the Seeded Teams.  The list of teams are available on the website at http://www.lion44.co.uk/?q=iron_five_teams

I am now pleased to announce that the Unseeded team places are open to enter and if your team was unsuccessful in a bid for a Wild Card place you should have been sent information how to enter as an unseeded team.  If you didn't bid for a Wild Card spot or you want to enter another team you my now register by emailing phil <at> lion44.co.uk.  Further information will be sent to you on how to pay and secure you teams spot for Iron Five.


Scraggy
Iron Five TD
http://www.lion44.co.uk/?q=iron-five


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Lukas Kahwe Smith | 2 Sep 2011 14:06

Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!


On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472@... wrote:

> 2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s
> 

so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the swedish team or the EFDF?

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls@...
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Bruno Scala | 2 Sep 2011 14:19
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Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

The implied player wrote a comment about the action on the EUC 2011 facebook page, which many players responded to, each of them giving his own opinion. Apparently, it seems like there's a debate on wether this is a turnover or not. If there's debate among players, I suppose there's not going to be any official move from efdf


Bruno Scala
_

L'Œil de Bruno, toute l'actualité des équipes de France d'Ultimate Frisbee

♣ Respect the environment. Make sure you need a paper version of this document before you print it out.



On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Lukas Kahwe Smith <mls-NyTdwsIbuQnOQU1ULcgDhA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org wrote:

> 2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s
>


so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the swedish team or the EFDF?

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls-NyTdwsIbuQnOQU1ULcgDhA@public.gmane.org





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Patrick van der Valk | 2 Sep 2011 14:27

Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

The EUF (EFDF no longer exists) and the WFDF SOTG group have been discussing
the incident over the last couple of days. We will issue a public statement
this weekend. As most of you, we are all volunteers and doing this while
maintaining our real jobs :-)

Stay tuned

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: eurodisc-bounces@...
[mailto:eurodisc-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Lukas Kahwe
Smith
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 1:06 PM
To: natas8472@...
Cc: eurodisc@...
Subject: Re: [ED] Turnover, turnover, turnover!

On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472@... wrote:

> 2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s
> 

so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the
swedish team or the EFDF?

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls@...
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Christian Schneider | 2 Sep 2011 14:30

Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

Am 02.09.2011 um 14:19 schrieb Bruno Scala:
> Apparently, it seems like there's a debate on wether this is a turnover or not.

There is a statement concerning this on the Facebook page:
"There still seems to be some uncertainty about whether this incident was a turnover and I would like to
provide an official clarification.

Rule 14.1 & Rule 12.2: http://ultimaterules.co.cc/?page_id=1535

In this incident the player lost control due to subsequent contact with the ground and therefore the catch
is deemed not to have occurred. Therefore it is a turnover.
-
Rueben Berg
Chair
WFDF Ultimate Rules Committee"

Regards,
- Buddha
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natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org | 2 Sep 2011 14:52
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Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

Hi,

Tomas Eriksson, the player involved tells his point of view on the 
facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/EUC2011

Long story short: He didn´t know that it was a turnover. He now knows 
that he made a mistake. He wasn´t trying to cheat or cover things up.

The lesson i take away from this incident is that "we" should put more 
effort in learning and teaching the rules. The best advice i ever heard 
about what is the best way to learn the rules: Just print out a copy and 
put it in the bathroom to read...

Regards

M.

Am 02.09.2011 14:06, schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith:
> On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472@... wrote:
>
>> 2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s
>>
>
> so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the swedish team or the EFDF?
>
> regards,
> Lukas Kahwe Smith
> mls@...
>
>
>
>
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Tom White | 2 Sep 2011 16:05
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Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

wow - a pretty basic rule not to understand.

I think it's fair enough that someone might not know the correct outcome to a complex/uncommon scenario* but this is not one - it's a fumble (albeit caused by falling over).

For a player of at least 4 years experience in a top team to not know the basics is pretty much inexcusable.

yt

*I'm just thinking about what happens if an offensive player makes a catch while his feet are in the endzone, but his knees are touching another player who is lying down (after a layout) outside the endzone.  Would it matter if that lying down player was on D or O?  would it matter if the lying down player was in contact with OB?  What if the lying down player was totally in the zone, but on D? These scenarios would require a discussion to resolve, and I would not be upset if the players involved didn't instantly know the correct outcomes.

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:52 PM, natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org <natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Hi,

Tomas Eriksson, the player involved tells his point of view on the facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/EUC2011

Long story short: He didn´t know that it was a turnover. He now knows that he made a mistake. He wasn´t trying to cheat or cover things up.


The lesson i take away from this incident is that "we" should put more effort in learning and teaching the rules. The best advice i ever heard about what is the best way to learn the rules: Just print out a copy and put it in the bathroom to read...

Regards

M.






Am 02.09.2011 14:06, schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith:

On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org wrote:

2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s


so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the swedish team or the EFDF?

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls-NyTdwsIbuQnOQU1ULcgDhA@public.gmane.org







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natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org | 2 Sep 2011 16:26
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Picon

Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

Rule:
11.3.3.  Contact between players does not confer the state of being in- or out-of-
bounds from one to another.



Am 02.09.2011 16:05, schrieb Tom White:
wow - a pretty basic rule not to understand.

I think it's fair enough that someone might not know the correct outcome to a complex/uncommon scenario* but this is not one - it's a fumble (albeit caused by falling over).

For a player of at least 4 years experience in a top team to not know the basics is pretty much inexcusable.

yt

*I'm just thinking about what happens if an offensive player makes a catch while his feet are in the endzone, but his knees are touching another player who is lying down (after a layout) outside the endzone.  Would it matter if that lying down player was on D or O?  would it matter if the lying down player was in contact with OB?  What if the lying down player was totally in the zone, but on D? These scenarios would require a discussion to resolve, and I would not be upset if the players involved didn't instantly know the correct outcomes.

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:52 PM, natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org <natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Hi,

Tomas Eriksson, the player involved tells his point of view on the facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/EUC2011

Long story short: He didn´t know that it was a turnover. He now knows that he made a mistake. He wasn´t trying to cheat or cover things up.


The lesson i take away from this incident is that "we" should put more effort in learning and teaching the rules. The best advice i ever heard about what is the best way to learn the rules: Just print out a copy and put it in the bathroom to read...

Regards

M.






Am 02.09.2011 14:06, schrieb Lukas Kahwe Smith:

On Aug 31, 2011, at 16:59 , natas8472-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org wrote:

2011 Maribor EUC Open Final Sweden against Great Britain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzm1BTaidY#t=13m45s


so is anyone aware of any "official" reaction, proceedings? either from the swedish team or the EFDF?

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls-NyTdwsIbuQnOQU1ULcgDhA@public.gmane.org








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Lukas Kahwe Smith | 2 Sep 2011 16:57

Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!


On Sep 2, 2011, at 16:05 , Tom White wrote:

> wow - a pretty basic rule not to understand.
> 
> I think it's fair enough that someone might not know the correct outcome to a complex/uncommon scenario*
but this is not one - it's a fumble (albeit caused by falling over).
> 
> For a player of at least 4 years experience in a top team to not know the basics is pretty much inexcusable.

after having watched the video a couple of times, i must come to the same conclusion. i cannot imagine anyone
not realizing that this was a fumble unless they have been trained to not self referee themselves. aka
either the player cheated or was trained to not even think about rules if it isnt to their advantage in the
given situation. in either case i think its a major issue.

but what i am wondering more is how apparently really none of the GB players noticed anything. if i see things
right on the video then the play was even close to the line to the point where it might have been an out of
bounds catch even if it wouldnt have been fumbled. i guess the GB players would be the best to be able to
comment if they feel like events were intentionally covered up.

at any rate for me this isnt about if we need to add observers or post video analysis of all (or only "major"
games) since the actions were very clear to the audience. what is at debate here is why such a high level
player was unable to follow basic rules. i fear its not the fault of a single player but more a general
mentality of using the rules like lawyers and not along their "spirit". this comment is based on other
reports i have heard from this particular final as well as other games in the open division at the last europeans.

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls@...
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Tom White | 2 Sep 2011 17:07
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Re: Turnover, turnover, turnover!

Yo,

Difficult for the opposing team to call stuff like this - you might have *thought* you saw a fumble, but as soon as the player holds the disc up/acknowledges the score you put the thought away.

No doubt there's a lot of pressure on a player to "not fumble" - but it would be great for the instinct of "put the disc down and play D" to trump the instinct of "That could have been a score - oh it still can!".

yt

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Lukas Kahwe Smith <mls-NyTdwsIbuQnOQU1ULcgDhA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

On Sep 2, 2011, at 16:05 , Tom White wrote:

> wow - a pretty basic rule not to understand.
>
> I think it's fair enough that someone might not know the correct outcome to a complex/uncommon scenario* but this is not one - it's a fumble (albeit caused by falling over).
>
> For a player of at least 4 years experience in a top team to not know the basics is pretty much inexcusable.

after having watched the video a couple of times, i must come to the same conclusion. i cannot imagine anyone not realizing that this was a fumble unless they have been trained to not self referee themselves. aka either the player cheated or was trained to not even think about rules if it isnt to their advantage in the given situation. in either case i think its a major issue.

but what i am wondering more is how apparently really none of the GB players noticed anything. if i see things right on the video then the play was even close to the line to the point where it might have been an out of bounds catch even if it wouldnt have been fumbled. i guess the GB players would be the best to be able to comment if they feel like events were intentionally covered up.

at any rate for me this isnt about if we need to add observers or post video analysis of all (or only "major" games) since the actions were very clear to the audience. what is at debate here is why such a high level player was unable to follow basic rules. i fear its not the fault of a single player but more a general mentality of using the rules like lawyers and not along their "spirit". this comment is based on other reports i have heard from this particular final as well as other games in the open division at the last europeans.

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