Chris Reinhardt | 1 Feb 01:07 2007
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RE: Bent Axle

 Wow, that must have got your attention!!!
  Phil, like I said, I don't know why it works, it just does.  Is a 1x8 weaker than a 2x4? Depends on how you lay it.  I
think if they are both on the vertical plane, the 1x8 is stronger.  I think it works on that principal, you
have essentially a 1/4" by almost 4" wide piece of flat, versus the 1 1/4 round.
   The cost difference along with the weight savings, would make me change even if it wasn't any stronger..

  CR

   

Phil Green <pwgreen@...> wrote:
  Don't see how a tube could be stronger than a solid if the materials are
the same. I would suspect if you have seen a difference, it was also
due to a material difference. It will be lighter, of course. 

But, a larger diameter tube will be stronger than a thicker wall.
Imagine trying to bend a 2" fencepost tube or conduit compared to a 3/8"
solid. 

On the subject of bent / breaking axles.... Had an axle break on me at
Grattan in May during a test day. It was something that we were trying
with Don Handley, using a larger axle with the ends turned down to the
normal 1.25". There wasn't a good radius on the transition which
created a huge stress riser. This decided to snap at the apex of the
last turn going on to the straight at Grattan. Somehow I didn't hit the
wall. However, the flailing axle broke both carbs, of which pieces went
completely through the engine. 

So, the bill included: axle (of course), carb bodies, bearings,
complete engine tear down, Gates drive belt ($$$), and an assload of
(Continue reading)

iamuwere | 1 Feb 01:16 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

one of those odd things
the tube is better when loaded

John--it doesn't take
much to get a hollow axle
I don't know exactly what you need, but I just use
kart rear axles--no too much dough, and available

jim

----- Original Message
----
From: Phil Green <pwgreen@...>
To: f500@...
Sent:
Wednesday, January 31, 2007 6:52:56 PM
Subject: RE: [F500] Bent Axle

Don't
see how a tube could be stronger than a solid if the materials are
the same.
I would suspect if you have seen a difference, it was also
due to a material
difference.  It will be lighter, of course.  

But, a larger diameter tube
will be stronger than a thicker wall.
Imagine trying to bend a 2" fencepost
tube or conduit compared to a 3/8"
solid. 
(Continue reading)

John Vriesinga | 1 Feb 01:56 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

> Is a 1x8 weaker than a 2x4? Depends on how you lay it.  I think if they 
> are both on the vertical plane, the 1x8 is stronger.

We had a discussion like this back when I was investing all my time hot 
rodding a z28. The issue was around which sway bar was better: hollow or 
round. As the engineering types pointed out the core of the sway bar had 
little or nothing to contribute to eliminating sway since there was no 
movement there anyways. That makes sense, but I can't see how a hollow tube 
is stronger than a solid one when both are the same external diameter and 
both are made of the same material.

In any case, my machinist assures me that this solid 1.25 will not bend. 
We'll see, I guess.

JV 
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John Vriesinga | 1 Feb 01:59 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

> I have the hollow axle with a 3/4 sawed off bolt welded on each end, as do 
> the QRE's..

Done that way, I guess it wouldn't be an issue. I just assumed that if I 
were going hollow, I would also have to go thicker. That would be a lot more 
work. Oh well, we'll see how this new shaft works out and if it bends then 
I'll consider going hollow if I can find a logical and lucid explanation as 
to why it would be better. Maybe I'll ask my machinist tomorrow. Stay tuned. 
;-)

JV 
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John Vriesinga | 1 Feb 02:01 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

> However, the flailing axle broke both carbs, of which pieces went
> completely through the engine.  

> So, the bill included:  axle (of course), carb bodies, bearings,
> complete engine tear down, Gates drive belt ($$$), and an assload of
> work. 

Oh shite! That would have been an expensive day!

JV
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John Vriesinga | 1 Feb 02:08 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

> John--it doesn't take
> much to get a hollow axle
> I don't know exactly what you need, but I just use
> kart rear axles--no too much dough, and available

You guys have really got me thinking about this now. Anyways, I doubt it 
would be worthwhile for me because I've got to have two 10 inch ends to 
accommodate the drive gear, rotor, bearings, (all of them keyed in place) 
and the welds to connect to the hollow shaft etc. That only leaves me 20 
inches. Not worth all the work, probably.

JV 
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Eric Fahlgren | 1 Feb 01:50 2007

Re: Bent Axle

Chris Reinhardt wrote:

>  Ain't no engineer here, but a hollow axle will resist bending better than a solid one.

You are completely correct in stating that you are not an engineer.
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Phil Green | 1 Feb 02:52 2007
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RE: Bent Axle

Yep, sure was.  Was just planning on running the test day for a fairly
simple shake down run on a freshened engine.  Don't remember, but it was
a painful couple thou$ when it was all done.  It was a sad day seeing my
baby dangling from the wrecker... Especially on a test day!

Had residual issues during the next two events (June Sprints and Cat
National, both at Road America).  

-----Original Message-----
From: f500-bounces+pwgreen=centurytel.net@...
[mailto:f500-bounces+pwgreen=centurytel.net@...] On Behalf Of John
Vriesinga
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:01 PM
To: f500@...
Subject: Re: [F500] Bent Axle

> However, the flailing axle broke both carbs, of which pieces went 
> completely through the engine.

> So, the bill included:  axle (of course), carb bodies, bearings, 
> complete engine tear down, Gates drive belt ($$$), and an assload of 
> work.

Oh shite! That would have been an expensive day!

JV
________________________________
FormulaCar Magazine - A Proud Supporter of Formula 500
The Official Publication of Junior Formula Car Racing
Subscribe Today! www.formulacarmag.com or 519-624-2003
(Continue reading)

dogill80 | 1 Feb 02:48 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

Well,

That's the "kicker" here.  They aren't the same material (at least not 
mine).  I believe Chris is right in that tubes are reportedly stronger than 
bars.  I think the rule states chrome moly which is what I got.  Mine were 
47" long, 1.25" OD, .25" wall thickness, opposing keyways on each side, and 
C-clips on the ends.  $67 from American Powersports.

dg

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Green" <pwgreen@...>
To: <f500@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: [F500] Bent Axle

> Don't see how a tube could be stronger than a solid if the materials are
> the same.  I would suspect if you have seen a difference, it was also
> due to a material difference.  It will be lighter, of course.
>
> But, a larger diameter tube will be stronger than a thicker wall.
> Imagine trying to bend a 2" fencepost tube or conduit compared to a 3/8"
> solid.
>
>
> On the subject of bent / breaking axles.... Had an axle break on me at
> Grattan in May during a test day.  It was something that we were trying
> with Don Handley, using a larger axle with the ends turned down to the
> normal 1.25".  There wasn't a good radius on the transition which
> created a huge stress riser.  This decided to snap at the apex of the
(Continue reading)

Mark Osterbrink | 1 Feb 03:59 2007
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Re: Bent Axle

Eric Fahlgren wrote:
> Chris Reinhardt wrote:
> 
>>  Ain't no engineer here, but a hollow axle will resist bending better 
>> than a solid one.
> 
> 
> You are completely correct in stating that you are not an engineer.

:)

A hollow axle is not stronger in bending than a solid axle of the same 
diameter and material.  A hollow axle can be lighter for the same 
strength, but with a larger OD than a solid axle.  A hollow axle can be 
stronger for the same weight, but with a larger OD than a solid axle.  A 
hollow axle can be lighter and not a lot weaker than a solid axle of the 
same diameter.  But if you take a solid axle, and drill out the center, 
it will be weaker.
________________________________
FormulaCar Magazine - A Proud Supporter of Formula 500
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(Continue reading)


Gmane