Benjamin Udell | 3 Jan 2010 22:02
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Santiago: MS 318 or...

List,
 
Brent said that Peirce started using "Santiago" honor of James in May 1909, and referred to MS 318, where such information fails to appear. Brent thought he saw the information somewhere, and suspected a mixup between manuscript numbering systems. I noticed that MS 318 was dated "c.1907" by Robin. Now why would Peirce in a 1907 MS explain why he starts using "Santiago" in May 1909? It occurred to me that, if Brent really did see such information, maybe it was in a 1909 manuscript. And of course, one would expect that Peirce didn't say that he "adopted" the name "in 1909" - but maybe he said in 1909 that he's been using it in honor of James (even though he adopted it years earlier for some other reason). He'd been using it in Monist articles since 1906, and his name appeared in print with "Santiago" back in 1890.
 
Below I've copied all the 1909 manuscript listings from the Robin Catalog. I also included letters and draft letters from Peirce dated 1909. 
 
L 318 ("318" a la MS 318) seems unlikely: "New York Herald (editor). One letter draft, signed "Constant Reader," [c. 1906]." 
 
MS 619, *620 (the asterisk indicates a numbering discrepancy), and maybe 621 which continues *620, all dated 1909, look particularly interesting, with autobiographical material, pragmatism, Peirce's intellectual autobiography, the Metaphysical Club, etc.
 
I doubt that anybody with access to the manuscripts or the microfilm will want to go through all the manuscripts and letters listed below, but it might be worth it for somebody with access to look through MSS 619 and *620 and whatever else seems a likely candidate from the list below. - Best, Ben
 
 
The greater part of the Peirce Collection, exclusive of the correspondence, was microfilmed in 1963 - 64. Upon completion of the microfilming, errors in cataloguing were discovered. Because any extensive revision of the microfilm was prohibited by the expense involved, the microfilm, apart from a very few changes, was left alone. Asterisks placed before manuscript numbers have called attention to discrepancies between what was filmed and the revised catalogue descriptions, except where an entire manuscript was removed from the folder reserved for it, in which case, for the sake of convenience, the catalogue description and the microfilm correspond.
 
339. Logic
A. MS., notebook, n.p., November 12, 1865-November 1, 1909.
CSP kept this notebook from 1865 until his death, recording in it (and dating) many of his investigations in their first stages: "Here I write but never after read what I have written for what I write is done in the process of forming a conception." The sheets have been ordered and numbered by Professor Don Roberts, and a page by page index has been provided by him and is kept with the notebook. Among the topics included are: real definition, the categorical syllogism, intension and extension, the logic of relatives, existential graphs, collections, the theory of signs, induction and hypothesis, the history of science, scepticism and common sense, the nature of truth, liberty and necessity.
 
* 514. [Fragments on Existential Graphs]
A. MS., n.p., [1909], 53 pp.
 
618. Introduction (Meaning Introd.)
A. MS., n.p., March 28-29, 1909, pp. 1-3, incomplete.
This is one of several attempts by CSP in 1909 to write an introduction to a collection of his papers on pragmatism. This introduction defines "science" in terms of what it is that animates the true scientist; namely, the dedicated search for truth for its own sake. CSP rejects both the Aristotelian notion that science is syllogistically demonstrated knowledge and the notion that science is systematized knowledge. Reference to Lady Welby's "significs."
 
619. Studies in Meaning (Meaning)
A. MS., G-1909-1, March 25-28, pp. 1-14, with 2 rejected pp.
Only the first paragraph published, with minor editorial changes, as 5.358n*. Autobiographical material: persons with whom the Peirce family were acquainted; CSP and his father; CSP's emotional instability; CSP's early interest in chemistry and his discovery of Whately's Logic at the age of 13; the study of Schiller's Aesthetische Briefe, followed by a study of Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Prolegomena, out of which came CSP's lifelong devotion to the study of logic. Members of the Metaphysical Club.
 
* 620. Essays Toward the Interpretation of our Thoughts. My Pragmatism (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., G-1909-1, April 6-May 24, 1909, pp. 1-51 (pp. 40-41 missing), with 45 pp. of variants.
Only the first sentence of the "Preface" published (7.313n1). CSP's intellectual autobiography: the Metaphysical Club and the influence of Chauncey Wright and Nicholas St. John Green on his thinking. Abbot, who attended but one meeting of the Metaphysical Club, heard CSP on that occasion arguing in favor of Scholastic realism. Half a generation later, Abbot, in a book entitled "Scientific Theism" urged the same opinion. CSP recalls the occasion of writing the 1877-78 articles for the Popular Science Monthly. Pragmatism and pragmatisism distinguished. The fallibility of human reasoning. Sound reasoning and moral virtue. The plight of university instruction in logic. Whewell and J. S. Mill. Biographical notes on Duns Scotus and Ockham. Realism versus nominalism. Nominalism, concludes CSP, leads to absolute sceptisism. The meaning of "real"; the meaning of "universal."
 
621. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., May 24-September 1, 1909, pp. 21-36.6, with 2 rejected pp.; plus pp. 37-42.
This manuscript continues p. 20 of MS. 620. The nominalism-realism controversy. Auguste Comte and J. S. Mill.
 
622. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., May 26-June 3, 1909, pp. 34-70 (p. 50 missing), 42-43, 51, and fragments.
History of logic: Mill's nominalism; individualism as only one particular variety of nominalism; Bolzano's treatise on logic; Boole's logic; Augustus De Morgan; and the logicians, A. B. Kempe and Josiah Royce.
 
623. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., G-1909-1, June 5-7, 1909, pp. 43-50.
Published, in part, as 1.27 (pp. 48-50). Unpublished: an historical explanation of the popularity of nominalism in CSP's day. The union of humanists and Ockhamists in opposition to the position of Duns Scotus.
 
624. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., June 7, 1909, pp. 51-56, with a rejected p. 53.
Essence of the method of science lies in hypotheses whose predictions turn into verifications. Mill and the false doctrine of nominalism. Law of the Uniformity of Nature and Mill's attempt to justify it by induction. Doctrine of chances.
 
625. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., June 12-24, 1909, pp. 51-58, 58-82, incomplete.
Mill and nominalism. What makes nominalism attractive? Mill's contradictory position: he holds with Pearson and Poincare, on the one side, and yet he stands with Whately on induction, on the other side. The Uniformity of Nature Principle. CSP regards inference as possible only because of real connections in re. Characteristics of mathematical reasoning.
 
626. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., June 12, 1909, pp. 52-56.
Alternate draft of pp. 52-56 of MS. 625.
 
627. (Meaning Pragmatism)
A. MS., n.p., June 14, 1909, pp. 59-65.
Probable continuation of pp. 51-58 of MS. 625.
 
628. Studies in the Meanings of our Thought. What is the Aim of Thinking? considered in Two Chapters. Chapter I. The Fixation of Belief (Meaning)
A. MS., n.p., March 1909, pp. 1-2, 2-5.
The aim of reasoning: "to find out, from the consideration of matters and things already known, something else that we had not before known." Good reasoning gives true conclusions from true premises.
 
629. Studies in the Meanings of Our Thoughts. What is the Aim of Thinking, considered in Two Chapters. Chapter I. The Fixation of Belief (Meaning)
A. MS., n.p., March 1909, pp. 1-2.
The importance of studying logic. Brief comment on the history of instruction in logic.
 
630. Studies of Meaning (Meaning)
A. MS., n.p., March 22-25, 1909, pp. 1, 3-6; plus an alternative p. 2 and an unnumbered page.
Reference to the Popular Science Monthly articles of 1877-78 and the formulation of a principle called "pragmatism." Disagreement with James who pressed the matter of pragmatism "further than Mr. Peirce, who continues to acknowledge, not the existence, but yet the reality of the Absolute, as set forth, for example, by Royce." The Metaphysical Club and some of its leading members. CSP's intellectual development. The purpose (and the success) of CSP's attempt to master several of the special sciences.
 
631. Preface (Meaning Preface to the Volume)
A .MS., n.p., August 24, 1909, pp. 1-4 (for p. 5, see MS. 632).
CSP writes of his many undertakings in science, ranging from chemistry to the history of science. He speaks of his own natural powers of mind as "rather below than above mediocrity," but mentions that his three strongest points have been "self-criticism, persistence, and logical analysis."
 
632. Preface (Meaning Preface to the Book)
A. MS., n.p., August 24-29, 1909, pp. 1-27, plus fragments.
CSP's estimation of his own mental powers. He speaks of having heard "the most extravagant estimates placed upon my mental powers." ". . . my principal deficiency, which is that my brain is small. This renders me incapable of thoroughly grasping together any considerable number of details; and one consequence is that I do not readily pass from one subject, or occupation of thought, to another; whence my persistency." Linguistic expression is not natural to CSP, who claims never to think in words, but always in some kind of diagram. His difficulties with foreign languages. "In college, I received the most humiliating marks for my themes.... My amicable teacher Professor Francis James Child . . . thought I took no pains. But I did." CSP attributes his awkwardness of linguistic expression to his left-handedness, noting that he once wrote with facility right-handed. To grasp what abstract thought is about requires more than reading about doing something - it requires actually doing it. The "literary" habit - CSP's term for it - is ruinous.
 
633. Preface (Meaning Preface to the volume)
A. MS., n.p., September 4-6, 1909, pp. 1.1-1.8.
Logical and psychological analysis sharply separated, without minimizing the importance of either. Logic does not rest upon psychology, although it is true to say that in the synthetical (methodeutic) part of logic, certain psychological principles ought to be considered. Logic does appeal, however, to mathematics, phenomenology, and esthetics.
 
634. Preface (Meaning Preface to the Book)
A. MS., n.p., September 8-17, 1909, pp. 1-27, with 3 pp. rejected; plus p. 1 of an earlier draft, dated September 7, 1909.
Criticism of the current psychological approach to logic. Ultimate assurance of the truth of the conclusion of any reasoning is faith in the governance of the universe by an Active Reason. The distinction between object of thought and the object thought about. The real object, unlike the object of thought, is not subject to the modifications of thought. Logic as general semiotic; logic considers signs in general. Relationship among object, sign, interpretant. Signs as substitutes for objects and capable of interpretation through the mind. Nothing is able to represent itself exclusively.
 
635. (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., September 19 - October 2, 1909, pp. 2-7.7, 8-8 2/3 (p. 8 following p. 7.1), 6-8 (p. 6 following p. 5 of the first sequence).
Logic and psychology. Logic is not concerned with what passes in consciousness, and no person's confidence in an argument is any sure sign of the argument's validity. Doctrine of chances serves to illustrate these points.
 
636. (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., September 22-30, 1909, pp. 6-31, plus 2 pp. of variants.
Whether there is any reason for absolute faith. Kant's criticism of Aristotle (<ber die falsche Spitzfindigkeit de vier syllogistischen Figuren") is deemed ludicrous. Kant makes validity of inference dependent on the manner in which facts are thought rather than on the facts themselves. The relationship between logic and psychology. The distinction between "assertion" and "urtheil."
 
637. (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., October 3-13, 1909, pp. 9-36, 27-30, 28-29, 31-36.
Tendency to guess right (but not necessarily on the first guess). Pure logic supports the general assertion that a cautious presumption may be credited if no contrary evidence is available. The discussion of such presumptions is relegated to methodeutic. Criticism of Kant's criticism of Aristotle (Kant's "<ber die falsche Spitzfindigkeit der vier syllogistische Figuren"). Criticism of Sigwart's views that existence is the only form of reality, that any inference from thought to real objects is invalid, and that we know immediately our own thought. Unity of thought as consisting in the continuity of the life of a growing idea. An introduction to CSP's theory of signs which doesn't get beyond the elementary distinctions of the theory. Iconic, indexical, and symbolic signs.
 
638. (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., October 4-6, 1909, pp. 14-21.
Justification of retroduction. Pure logic encourages inquiry based on hypotheses which we accept on impulse. Practical and scientific retroduction.
 
639. Essays on Meaning. Preface (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., October 20, [1909], pp. 1-4.
Condemnation of present day logicians. The importance of restoring logic as the foundation of a liberal education (as was the case in medieval times).
 
640. Essays on Meaning. Preface (Meaning Preface)
A. MS., n.p., October 22-23, 1909, pp. 1-12 (with several other pages fitting into the sequence).
The division of logic into three studies: universal grammar, critic, and methodeutic. Mill's distinction between connotation and denotation discussed. CSP's opposition to the leading schools of logic of his day that tie rationality to human consciousness by regarding human consciousness as the author of rationality. For CSP, there is no distinction more momentous than that between "is" and "would be."
 
641. Significs and Logic (Significs and Logic)
A. MS., n.p., November 3-18, 1909, pp. 1-24 25/26, plus 4 pp. (November 2-23).
Purpose: analysis of the relations between semeiotic (physiology of signs) and logic (theory of reasoning). Meaning of "argument." Doctrine of chances. Nominalism and realism. The meaning of the word "real." CSP refers to his review of Frazer's edition of Berkeley, in which he took the qualified realist position of Duns Scotus. Here CSP comes out for an unqualified version of realism. CSP regards himself as a disciple of Berkeley, although he is opposed to Berkeley's denial of matter as well as to his nominalism. The distinction between God's reality and God's existence. God's reality, apart from the question of God's existence, canont be doubted by anyone who meditates upon the question. Belief in God is a natural instinct. The nature of God: God is both intelligible and incomprehensible. All atheists are nominalists. Is nominalism consistent? Substance and accident. Indefiniteness: The indefinite is not subject to the principle of contradiction. Modal logic. Analogy between modes of being and modes of meaning. Biographical material: CSP writes of the conferences in Paris of leading geodesists, and he recalls an incident involving Sylvester.
 
642. Significs and Logic (Significs and Logic)
A. MS., n.p., November 25-28, 1909, pp. 8-25.
This manuscript continues the preceding one. The meaning of "real." The distinction between the externality and internality of fact supported by common sense. Signification of reality compared with externality of fact. Three kinds of modality. The three modes of assertion of law, of actual fast, of freedom. Principle of excluded middle does not apply to assertions of law; principle of contradiction does not apply to assertions of freedom. Both principles apply to assertions of actual fast. Sophistries of nominalism. Some of Locke's views present difficulties for CSP.
 
643. Studies of Logical Analysis, or Definition (Definition 1st notes)
A. MS., n.p., December 12-13, 1909, pp. 1-7, incomplete.
Purpose: discovery of the methods of dissecting the meaning of a sign. Meanings and chemical substances. The notion of valence, or attachment (the "pegs" of CSP's existential graphs). The difference between various attachments of a concept and the valences of carbon: The attachments are unlike each other; the valences are not qualitatively different. Is it the case that we always think in signs? Signs and ideas.
 
644. On Definition or The Analysis of Meaning (Definition: 2nd Draught)
A. MS., n.p., December 21, 1909, 1 p.
What it means to say that anything is dependent. What it means to say that any predicate is essentially true. Importance of the notion of "would be" for philosophy.
 
645. How to Define (Definition: 3rd Draught)
A. MS., n.p., December 22 - January 12, 1910, pp. 1-26, with a variant p. 20.
Three studies distinguished (phaneroscopy, logic, and psychology) and their order of dependence established. Feeling, volition, and thought. In regard to feeling, Hume is in error, for he is committed to the view that vividness is an element of a sensequality. The three modes of separating the elements of a thought-object are precision, dissociation, and discrimination. Volition and purpose. Resemblances as residing in the interpretation of secondary feelings. CSP's essential conservatism. He warns, however, that self-criticism, carried too far, leads to exaggerated distrust.
 
L 36. Barnet, Samuel. Fragments of letter drafts from CSP, two of which are dated, December 8, 1909 and February 16, 1910.
 
L 80. Century Company (Century Dictionary). Forty-seven letters to CSP and Juliette Peirce, April 12, 1890-May 18, 1932; nine letter drafts from CSP, April 10, 1901 June 20, 1909, and n.d. One letter (J. R. Buchanan) to the editor of the Century Dictionary, June 24, n. yr.
 
L 187. Harvard Cooperative Society. One letter draft from CSP, January 1, 1909.
 
L 224. James, William. One letter (fragment) to CSP, n.d.; one postal card to CSP, Rome November 26, 1900; one telegram to CSP, March 20, 1903; several letter drafts and fragments of drafts from, most of which are dated or have been dated, with the dates ranging from [April 1897] to [December 25, 1909].
 
L 366. Quincy, Josiah ("Cousin Jo"). Five letter drafts from CSP, June 25-July 15, 1909, and n.d. Fragment, n.d.
 
L 387. Russell, Francis C. Thirty-three letters to CSP, January 16, 1888-December 10, 1908; two letters (copies) from, September 17, 1887 and n.d.; sixty letter drafts and three postal cards from, September 12, 1887-January 23, 1909, and n.d.; four telegrams from, February 6, 1893-May 13, 1896. One letter draft from CSP to Carus, n.d.; one letter draft from CSP to the Editor of the Monist, October 7, 1904. Also: a copy of a letter (Edward C. Higilen) to Russell, September 19, 1894 and Agapetos' article on religion (sent to CSP by Russell).
 
L 424. Story, William Edward. Three letters to CSP, June 13, 1899-December 1, 1900; nine
letter drafts from, March 22, 1896-January 26, 1909.
 
L 463. Welby, Lady Victoria. Eighteen letters to CSP, May 24, 1903 - June 27, 1911; two postal cards to, November 20 and December 17, 1903; three letters to Juliette Peirce, October 18, 1909 - February 25, (1912), the last of which is from Maria L. H. Welby, daughter-in-law of Lady Welby; thirteen letter drafts from CSP, May 4, 1904 - March 14, 1909, and n.d.; one letter draft (Juliette Peirce, but in CSP's hand), n.d. Fragment, n.d. (February 9, 1909 in upper right corner applies to some independent calculations). One letter (Open Court) to CSP, November 1, 1898. Two letters (J. W. Slaughter) to CSP, August 20, 1909 and April 25, 1911.

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Jerry LR Chandler | 6 Jan 2010 16:33
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Email Address for Don D. Roberts


List:

"The Existential Graphs of Charles S. Peirce" a book by Don D.  
Roberts was published in 1973.

I would like to contact the author if he remains contactable.

Does anyone have an email address for him?

Cheers

Jerry

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Joseph Ransdell | 18 Jan 2010 21:41
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FW: Peirce Society: Minutes of the 2009 Business Meeting

Forwarded to PEIRCE-L by Joseph Ransdell

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles S. Peirce Society [mailto:PEIRCE-SOCIETY <at> westga.edu] On Behalf
Of Robert Lane
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 2:11 PM
To: PEIRCE-SOCIETY <at> westga.edu
Subject: Peirce Society: Minutes of the 2009 Business Meeting

Dear Members of the Charles S. Peirce Society,

The minutes of the Society's 2009 business meeting are now online at  
the Society's website:

http://www.peircesociety.org/minutes/minutes-2009-12-28.html

Best regards,
Robert

-- 
Robert Lane, Ph.D.
Secretary-Treasurer, Charles S. Peirce Society
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Department of English and Philosophy
University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118

678 839 4745
rlane <at> westga.edu
http://www.westga.edu/~rlane

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To unsubscribe from the Peirce Society's list-serv, send an email with  
"remove peirce society" in the subject line to rlane <at> westga.edu.

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Cornelis de Waal | 20 Jan 2010 16:07
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Lecture by Susan Haack entitled "Pragmatism, Then and Now"

The Indianapolis Peirce Seminar Presents


 

Pragmatism, Then and Now


 
by

Susan Haack

University of Miami


 


The lecture follows a recent interview she had with Sun Yong, a philosophy professor from Shanghai, about pragmatism, past, present, and even future. As Prof. Sun’s questions reveal, in part because of the contingencies of what original materials, and what commentaries, are available in Chinese, some serious misconceptions about pragmatism -- including the idea that Peirce wasn’t really a pragmatist, that he didn’t apply the Pragmatic Maxim to the concept of truth, etc. --  are prevalent in China. The interview provides an opportunity not only to clear up such misunderstandings, but also to reflect on what the future of pragmatism might be -- and what Haack hopes it will be.

 
Susan Haack is professor of philosophy and law at the University of Miami. She has written on logic, the philosophy of language, epistemology, and metaphysics, and is profoundly influenced by the work of Charles Sanders Peirce. She is a graduate of the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge, studying  Plato with Gilbert Ryle and logic with Michael Dummett. David Pears supervised her B.Phil. dissertation on ambiguity. At Cambridge, she wrote her Ph.D. under the supervision of Timothy Smiley. She held the positions of Fellow of New Hall, Cambridge and professor of philosophy at the University of Warwick before taking her current position at the University of Miami.


The lecture will be given on Thursday February 4 at  5:00 pm (which is one hour earlier than our regular meetings) at the Institute of American Thought in Room ES 0016. The institute is housed in the basement of the Education and Social Work building on the IUPUI campus, 902 West New York Street, Indianapolis.
 
 
For more information contact Cornelis de Waal at cdwaal <at> iupui.edu






Cornelis de Waal, Ph.D.


Associate Professor and Graduate Director
Department of Philosophy
http://in-lart-linux1.indysla.iupui.edu/directory/bio/cdwaal

Associate Editor
Peirce Edition Project
http://www.iupui.edu/~peirce/

Editor
Transactions of the Charles S. Peirce Society
http://www.peircesociety.org/transactions.html


ADDRESS:
Peirce Edition Project                    
902 West New York Street, ES 0010         
Indianapolis, IN 46202

tel.: (317) 274-2171
fax.: (317) 274-2170
----------------------------------------------------------------

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Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, the

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Clark Goble | 21 Jan 2010 22:37

Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast

It's been really quiet the past few months.  I'd fallen quite far behind in my peirce-l reading and have just
now been reading the thread on Peirce and Truth.  Hopefully no one will mind if I resurrect it.  I figured it'd
keep the list from dying that slow death that so many philosophy mailing lists have fallen prey to.

It's an interesting discussion that we'd had in a slightly different form a few years back here.  The issue to
me that is so interesting is the question of whether Peirce considers his notion of truth merely a
regulative one or whether it is (as per Kelly Parker) tied up in his conception of infinity and more than
regulative.  

The regulative view is that when we use the term truth that's simply what we mean by the word.  In this sense it
is put in counterfactual form. That is *if* inquiry continued on continuously through infinite duration
then there would be full convergence.  This view doesn't worry about whether this does or could happen.

The other view is that given this infinite duration (which we as finite being would never encounter) this
convergence *will* happen.  Ignoring the obvious metaphysical presuppositions (i.e. that information
is never lost).  Now this *will* is a bit tricky given the difference between finite beings and infinite
durations.  So I suppose one can still argue it's never actual.

My personal view is to favor the non-regulative view of truth.  That is that signs will by their very nature
converge in this final interpretant due to the nature of infinity for Peirce.  Now one can dispute whether
this could happen.  And, as I said, this depends upon the fairly controversial view that information is
never lost.  I'm not sure one ought accept such a conservation law.

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gnox | 22 Jan 2010 15:33
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Re: Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast

Clark,

Peirce wrote (in "Some Consequences of Four Incapacities", 1868) that
"what anything really is, is what it may finally come to be known to be
in the ideal state of complete information, so that reality depends on
the ultimate decision of the community" -- but if this is what you mean
by signs "converging in a final interpretant", i don't think it "depends
upon the view that information is never lost". That view seems to derive
from a view of "information" as a quasi-substance that can be saved or
lost, as a computer file can be saved to or deleted from a hard drive; it
wouldn't be "complete" unless *all* of this quasi-substance had been
somehow accumulated in a form accessible to a (presumably collective)
quasi-mind. I don't think this is compatible with a Peircean concept of
information.

But that is itself a subject in need of more investigation. I think the
place to start is André De Tienne's 2006 talk on "Peirce's Logic of
Information":
http://www.unav.es/gep/SeminariodeTienne.html
I think think a close reading of that paper, and of the Peirce writings
referred to in it, could contribute greatly to the discourse on "truth".
But i won't elaborate any further at this point, because i hardly know
where to start!

        gnox

} Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take 
thought for the things of itself. [Matthew 6:34] {

: search gnoxic xplornet :

----- Original Message ----- 

It's been really quiet the past few months.  I'd fallen quite far behind
in my peirce-l reading and have just now been reading the thread on
Peirce and Truth.  Hopefully no one will mind if I resurrect it.  I
figured it'd keep the list from dying that slow death that so many
philosophy mailing lists have fallen prey to.

It's an interesting discussion that we'd had in a slightly different form
a few years back here.  The issue to me that is so interesting is the
question of whether Peirce considers his notion of truth merely a
regulative one or whether it is (as per Kelly Parker) tied up in his
conception of infinity and more than regulative.

The regulative view is that when we use the term truth that's simply what
we mean by the word.  In this sense it is put in counterfactual form.
That is *if* inquiry continued on continuously through infinite duration
then there would be full convergence.  This view doesn't worry about
whether this does or could happen.

The other view is that given this infinite duration (which we as finite
being would never encounter) this convergence *will* happen.  Ignoring
the obvious metaphysical presuppositions (i.e. that information is never
lost).  Now this *will* is a bit tricky given the difference between
finite beings and infinite durations.  So I suppose one can still argue
it's never actual.

My personal view is to favor the non-regulative view of truth.  That is
that signs will by their very nature converge in this final interpretant
due to the nature of infinity for Peirce.  Now one can dispute whether
this could happen.  And, as I said, this depends upon the fairly
controversial view that information is never lost.  I'm not sure one
ought accept such a conservation law.

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Benjamin Udell | 22 Jan 2010 15:55
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Re: Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast

Clark, list,
 
Thanks for the post. For my part, I've been so busy lately that I haven't had the chance to follow up on a couple of recent Peirce threads here.
 
I've come to think that Peirce possibly was not quite decided about the questions below. It's true that Peirce offered a regulative conception of truth which doesn't requires that its user fully believe it, but instead requires only that the user at least hope and suspect that it is really true. That certainly doesn't mean that its user is forbidden to fully believe it, and Peirce seemed to have a belief stronger than mere suspicion that his truth theory was true.
 
A month or so ago I found somewhere in the CP where he discusses rates of discovery and projects them into the future - for lack of a better word at the moment, I'd say that his discussion becomes kind of "cosmic." But Peirce also in "A Neglected Argument" holds that there are "Real habits (which Really _would_ produce effects, under circumstances that may not happen to get actualised, and are thus Real generals". And of course there is the question of his later views of the infinite.
 
I hope to get past my current busy-ness and start following up in a week or so.
 
Best, Ben
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clark Goble" <Clark <at> lextek.com>
To: "Peirce Discussion Forum" <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: [peirce-l] Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast
 
It's been really quiet the past few months.  I'd fallen quite far behind in my peirce-l reading and have just now been reading the thread on Peirce and Truth.  Hopefully no one will mind if I resurrect it.  I figured it'd keep the list from dying that slow death that so many philosophy mailing lists have fallen prey to.
 
It's an interesting discussion that we'd had in a slightly different form a few years back here.  The issue to me that is so interesting is the question of whether Peirce considers his notion of truth merely a regulative one or whether it is (as per Kelly Parker) tied up in his conception of infinity and more than regulative. 
 
The regulative view is that when we use the term truth that's simply what we mean by the word.  In this sense it is put in counterfactual form. That is *if* inquiry continued on continuously through infinite duration then there would be full convergence.  This view doesn't worry about whether this does or could happen.
 
The other view is that given this infinite duration (which we as finite being would never encounter) this convergence *will* happen.  Ignoring the obvious metaphysical presuppositions (i.e. that information is never lost).  Now this *will* is a bit tricky given the difference between finite beings and infinite durations.  So I suppose one can still argue it's never actual.
 
My personal view is to favor the non-regulative view of truth.  That is that signs will by their very nature converge in this final interpretant due to the nature of infinity for Peirce.  Now one can dispute whether this could happen.  And, as I said, this depends upon the fairly controversial view that information is never lost.  I'm not sure one ought accept such a conservation law.

--------

Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, the

central pointer and guide to Peirce resources on the web:

                  http://csp3.blogspot.com/


-------          

If you want to cancel your subscription to PEIRCE-L send a

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H.G. Callaway | 22 Jan 2010 17:43
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Favicon

Re: Signing off

Philadelphia, PA
22 Jan 2010
 
Ben, Joe & list,
 
Well, just as you folks seem to get started again, I have decided it is best for me to sign off the Peirce-l. It has been nice over the years to be in direct contact with so many stimulating discussions and conversations, but I have just sent Joe my request to remove my name from the list and all my papers from Arisbe.
 
I have come to the conclusion that list discussions, while stimulating and engaging, often attempt to resolve questions which simply take more time and involve many more people than can possibly become involved in the discussions. This is nothing new in a way, since I've long had the sense that list discussions only tell us, at best, which papers it might be useful to write, but they are in no sense a substitute for the long-winding process of writing for journals and books.
 
I couldn't help but notice that when I got off the lists for a good long time, some years back, I went on to publish 4 books within a period of about two years. (By the way, the reviews have been generally very positive.) But it is not, of course, that I think nothing positive can be accomplished in the list discussions. Keep up your good work, but please count me out of the list.
 
Best regards to all,
 
Howard
 
H.G. Callaway

--- On Fri, 1/22/10, Benjamin Udell <budell <at> nyc.rr.com> wrote:

From: Benjamin Udell <budell <at> nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [peirce-l] Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast
To: "Peirce Discussion Forum" <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 2:55 PM

Clark, list,
 
Thanks for the post. For my part, I've been so busy lately that I haven't had the chance to follow up on a couple of recent Peirce threads here.
 
I've come to think that Peirce possibly was not quite decided about the questions below. It's true that Peirce offered a regulative conception of truth which doesn't requires that its user fully believe it, but instead requires only that the user at least hope and suspect that it is really true. That certainly doesn't mean that its user is forbidden to fully believe it, and Peirce seemed to have a belief stronger than mere suspicion that his truth theory was true.
 
A month or so ago I found somewhere in the CP where he discusses rates of discovery and projects them into the future - for lack of a better word at the moment, I'd say that his discussion becomes kind of "cosmic." But Peirce also in "A Neglected Argument" holds that there are "Real habits (which Really _would_ produce effects, under circumstances that may not happen to get actualised, and are thus Real generals". And of course there is the question of his later views of the infinite.
 
I hope to get past my current busy-ness and start following up in a week or so.
 
Best, Ben
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clark Goble" <Clark <at> lextek.com>
To: "Peirce Discussion Forum" <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:37 PM
Subject: [peirce-l] Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast
 
It's been really quiet the past few months.  I'd fallen quite far behind in my peirce-l reading and have just now been reading the thread on Peirce and Truth.  Hopefully no one will mind if I resurrect it.  I figured it'd keep the list from dying that slow death that so many philosophy mailing lists have fallen prey to.
 
It's an interesting discussion that we'd had in a slightly different form a few years back here.  The issue to me that is so interesting is the question of whether Peirce considers his notion of truth merely a regulative one or whether it is (as per Kelly Parker) tied up in his conception of infinity and more than regulative. 
 
The regulative view is that when we use the term truth that's simply what we mean by the word.  In this sense it is put in counterfactual form. That is *if* inquiry continued on continuously through infinite duration then there would be full convergence.  This view doesn't worry about whether this does or could happen.
 
The other view is that given this infinite duration (which we as finite being would never encounter) this convergence *will* happen.  Ignoring the obvious metaphysical presuppositions (i.e. that information is never lost).  Now this *will* is a bit tricky given the difference between finite beings and infinite durations.  So I suppose one can still argue it's never actual.
 
My personal view is to favor the non-regulative view of truth.  That is that signs will by their very nature converge in this final interpretant due to the nature of infinity for Peirce.  Now one can dispute whether this could happen.  And, as I said, this depends upon the fairly controversial view that information is never lost.  I'm not sure one ought accept such a conservation law.
--------
Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, the
central pointer and guide to Peirce resources on the web:
                  http://csp3.blogspot.com/

-------          
If you want to cancel your subscription to PEIRCE-L send a
message to the list manager at the following address:
     joseph.ransdell <at> yahoo.com
No reason need be given, just say "unsub", followed by your address

--------

Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, the

central pointer and guide to Peirce resources on the web:

                  http://csp3.blogspot.com/


-------          

If you want to cancel your subscription to PEIRCE-L send a

message to the list manager at the following address:

     joseph.ransdell <at> yahoo.com

No reason need be given, just say "unsub", followed by your address

Clark Goble | 22 Jan 2010 17:47

Re: Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast


On Jan 22, 2010, at 7:33 AM, gnox wrote:

> Peirce wrote (in "Some Consequences of Four Incapacities", 1868) that
> "what anything really is, is what it may finally come to be known to be
> in the ideal state of complete information, so that reality depends on
> the ultimate decision of the community" -- but if this is what you mean
> by signs "converging in a final interpretant", i don't think it "depends
> upon the view that information is never lost". That view seems to derive
> from a view of "information" as a quasi-substance that can be saved or
> lost, as a computer file can be saved to or deleted from a hard drive; it
> wouldn't be "complete" unless *all* of this quasi-substance had been
> somehow accumulated in a form accessible to a (presumably collective)
> quasi-mind. I don't think this is compatible with a Peircean concept of
> information.

By information being lost I was thinking of the famous debate over particles falling into a black hole. 
There is an idea of information being conserved but black holes seem to violate this.  The wiki on it isn't
perfect (as we all know here wikis can have trouble due to undergraduates who think they know more than they
do).  But it's a great start on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox

My understanding of Peirce's position isn't that information is a substance but merely that it be a sign. 
The problem is the spatial-temporal ability of minds to encounter the signs such that the signs can
determine a mental interpretant in them.  If the signs are "disconnected" from the ideal community of
inquirers it seems like Peirce's faith is unavailable.

Of course Peirce couldn't know about black holes and, as I said, the black hole paradox is still somewhat
controversial.  (If there is a multiverse, for instance, then things get complicated)

> But that is itself a subject in need of more investigation. I think the
> place to start is André De Tienne's 2006 talk on "Peirce's Logic of
> Information":
> http://www.unav.es/gep/SeminariodeTienne.html

Thanks for the reference.  I'll look into that.

> I think think a close reading of that paper, and of the Peirce writings
> referred to in it, could contribute greatly to the discourse on "truth".
> But i won't elaborate any further at this point, because i hardly know
> where to start!

I have a few ideas as well, textually.  I just wanted to get conversation going again.  So I didn't want to show
all my cards!  <grin>

-----
**
** Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, which is 
** the central pointer and guide for Peirce resources on the web: 
**            http://csp3.blogspot.com/ 
** -------
**
** If you want to cancel your subscription to PEIRCE-L  
** send a message to the list manager at:   
**
**      joseph.ransdell <at> yahoo.com
**
** Just say "unsub", followed by your address

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Clark Goble | 22 Jan 2010 17:52

Re: Peirce on Truth--Compare and Contrast


On Jan 22, 2010, at 7:55 AM, Benjamin Udell wrote:

> I've come to think that Peirce possibly was not quite decided about the questions below. It's true that
Peirce offered a regulative conception of truth which doesn't requires that its user fully believe it,
but instead requires only that the user at least hope and suspect that it is really true. That certainly
doesn't mean that its user is forbidden to fully believe it, and Peirce seemed to have a belief stronger
than mere suspicion that his truth theory was true.

That's a great way to think of it Ben.  Reminds me of the Neglected Argument in a way.  

> A month or so ago I found somewhere in the CP where he discusses rates of discovery and projects them into the
future - for lack of a better word at the moment, I'd say that his discussion becomes kind of "cosmic." 

As many have discussed before at times Peirce is quasi-neoplatonic or even Hegelian.  (The neoplatonic
more early in his career while he was grappling with Kant; the Hegelian more in his later period which of
course surprised everyone in the Cambridge Lectures that James put on.)  In either tradition there are of
course good reasons to think information must be conserved.  

It's just interesting to muse on how Peirce's sign-system would differ if there were radical
discontinuities and other gaps rather than pure continuity.  He at times acknowledge such gaps.  I ought
look that up.  I'm quite sure Kelly Parker discusses that issue in the Continuity of Peirce's Thought.

-----
**
** Click on the following URL link for THE PEIRCE BLOG, which is 
** the central pointer and guide for Peirce resources on the web: 
**            http://csp3.blogspot.com/ 
** -------
**
** If you want to cancel your subscription to PEIRCE-L  
** send a message to the list manager at:   
**
**      joseph.ransdell <at> yahoo.com
**
** Just say "unsub", followed by your address

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Gmane