Joseph Ransdell | 1 Jun 2008 03:54
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RE: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)

To avoid possible confusion I should tell you that, in formatting the
messages in the thread into a single message, I made the mistake of setting
off the header of each message using lines of asterisks in such a way as to
suggest that it was a footer rather than a header!   Sorry about that!  

Anyway, since I haven't heard back from anyone on that, I suspect that the
problem was only in my mail account rather than in the lyris distribution to
the list.  Anyway, you can always check with the archives in case you think
you are missing messages you should have received.  See the URLs in my
signature block below.  (The Gmane archive seems to me to be the easiest of
the two to work with.)

Joe 

Joseph Ransdell 
ransdell <at> cspeirce.com 
ARISBE website:   http://www.cspeirce.com/ 
PEIRCE-L archives: 
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gnox | 2 Jun 2008 14:46
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Re: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Jim,
 
Peirce does use the word "probability" (rather loosely) in reference to the theatre manager's expectation that the future performance which he announces will really take place. Upon this you seem to be constructing a scenario in which the manager (or perhaps the whole community?) uses the inductive logic of probability to infer that said performance will actually take place. Then you take the validity of that inference to be the reality of the object of the sign -- the sign being either the expectation or the announcement, and its object being the future performance. Is that a reasonably accurate statement of your position?
 
If so, i find your scenario implausible and unnecessary. The manager is not conducting a scientific inquiry or testing a hypothesis; his expectation belongs rather to the universe of self-fulfilling prophecies. His announcement, which Peirce says is "in all probability" based on a realistic assessment of what will happen, is the kind of sign which, as Martin says, "may bring into existence its object." As Peirce explains, it may bring an audience into the theatre, without which the show would not go on. The question Peirce is addressing in this case is whether the the future performance, as the real object of the newspaper announcement, can be said to cause that very sign which brings it into existence. I don't see that the logic of scientific inquiry which you invoke addresses that question. But i think any further explanation on my part would be even less relevant, so i'll stop there. I don't have anything positive to add to this thread beyond what Martin, Jacob, Auke and i have already said.
 
        gnox
 
}But the world, mind, is, was and will be writing its own wrunes for ever, man, on all matters that fall under the ban of our infrarational senses ... [Finnegans Wake 19]{
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Gnox,
I was beginning to think that I was reading a different manuscript. The text inludes what Peirce underlined and wasn't an editorial decision by Joe. You ask for the identity of the real object.  I say it is a probability value greater than zero. That is the identity condition for a future, real object.  I don't want to say it exists because that is controversial. So, suppose an object with zero degree probability. That object is NOT real.
 
Peirce says,
if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.* {END)
 
Confidence and assurance are epistemic notions which I called "degree of belief." The phrase "in all probability not" is equivalent to "in no probability." This is the key to how an object that does not exist can cause a mental expectation. If the object has any degree of probability greater than zero, then it can cause a mental expectation. If it does not, then there is no causal influence. Objects with no causal influence are not real objects.
 
The phrase "in no probability" is an epistemic interpretation of the gamma graphs. It means "in no possible state of affairs."  What is a "state of affairs?" It is a collection of  "promises previously made." But more than that, it is the number of promises that are true measured against the total number of promises. The logical consequence is a mental expectation.  The antecedent is a degree of probability greater than zero. The philosophical significance is that the reality of the object is tied to the expectation.
 
Jim W
 
Peirce says,
Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?


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Cornelis de Waal | 2 Jun 2008 17:45
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Lecture by Ivor Grattan-Guinness: Solving Wigner¹s mystery



The Indianapolis Peirce Seminar Presents

Solving Wigner’s mystery
The Reasonable (Though Perhaps Limited) Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences

Ivor Grattan-Guinness
Middlesex University, London


The lecture will be given on Thursday June 5 at 6:00 pm at the Institute of American Thought in Room ES 0014. The institute is housed in the basement of the Education and Social Work building on the IUPUI campus, 902 West New York Street, Indianapolis.
 
Abstract
In 1960 the physicist Eugene Wigner published a very influential article on “The unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences.” I counter the claim stated in its title with an interpretation of science in which many of the uses of mathematics are shown to be quite reasonable, even rational, though maybe somewhat limited in content and indeed where ineffectiveness can be found. The alternative view emphasizes two factors which Wigner largely ignores: the effectiveness of the natural sciences in mathematics, in that much mathematics has been motivated by interpretations in the sciences, and still is; and the central place of theories in mathematics and the sciences, especially theory-building, in which analogies drawn from other theories play an important role. A major related feature is the desimplification of theories, which attempts to reduce limitations on their effectiveness. Significant also is the ubiquity and/or generality of many topics and notions in mathematics. It emerges that the connections between mathematics and the natural sciences are, and always have been, rationally though fallibly forged links, not a collection of mysterious parallelisms.
  
Ivor Grattan-Guinness is a historian of mathematics and logic who spent much of his career at Middlesex University Business School. He has been a fellow at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, and is a member of the Academie Internationale d'Histoire des Sciences.
 
 
 




Cornelis de Waal, Ph.D.


Associate Professor and Graduate Director
Department of Philosophy
http://in-lart-linux1.indysla.iupui.edu/directory/bio/cdwaal

Associate Editor
Peirce Edition Project
http://www.iupui.edu/~peirce/

Book Review Editor
Transactions of the Charles S. Peirce Society
http://www.peircesociety.org/transactions.html


ADDRESS:
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902 West New York Street, ES 0010         
Indianapolis, IN 46202

tel.: (317) 274-2171
fax.: (317) 274-2170
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Jim Willgoose | 2 Jun 2008 18:08
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RE: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Gnox,
You say,
 
The question Peirce is addressing in this case is whether the the future performance, as the real object of the newspaper announcement, can be said to cause that very sign which brings it into existence. (END)
 
The probability that the event will occur causes the announcement. Where do we differ? I do not think that non-existent objects have any causal powers. I assume that you agree. I separate the reality of the object from existence and make it a part of the past. The probability that the event will occur causes the announcement. There is no "self-fulfilling" prophecy since people might not show up at the theatre. (the theatre could burn down before the next night's performance) A mental expectation does not cause the event to occur. Rather, the real probability of the event ocurring causes notice to be served.
 
Jim W



From: gnox <at> xplornet.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: Re: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:46:53 -0400

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Jim,
 
Peirce does use the word "probability" (rather loosely) in reference to the theatre manager's expectation that the future performance which he announces will really take place. Upon this you seem to be constructing a scenario in which the manager (or perhaps the whole community?) uses the inductive logic of probability to infer that said performance will actually take place. Then you take the validity of that inference to be the reality of the object of the sign -- the sign being either the expectation or the announcement, and its object being the future performance. Is that a reasonably accurate statement of your position?
 
If so, i find your scenario implausible and unnecessary. The manager is not conducting a scientific inquiry or testing a hypothesis; his expectation belongs rather to the universe of self-fulfilling prophecies. His announcement, which Peirce says is "in all probability" based on a realistic assessment of what will happen, is the kind of sign which, as Martin says, "may bring into existence its object." As Peirce explains, it may bring an audience into the theatre, without which the show would not go on. The question Peirce is addressing in this case is whether the the future performance, as the real object of the newspaper announcement, can be said to cause that very sign which brings it into existence. I don't see that the logic of scientific inquiry which you invoke addresses that question. But i think any further explanation on my part would be even less relevant, so i'll stop there. I don't have anything positive to add to this thread beyond what Martin, Jacob, Auke and i have already said.
 
        gnox
 
}But the world, mind, is, was and will be writing its own wrunes for ever, man, on all matters that fall under the ban of our infrarational senses ... [Finnegans Wake 19]{
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Gnox,
I was beginning to think that I was reading a different manuscript. The text inludes what Peirce underlined and wasn't an editorial decision by Joe. You ask for the identity of the real object.  I say it is a probability value greater than zero. That is the identity condition for a future, real object.  I don't want to say it exists because that is controversial. So, suppose an object with zero degree probability. That object is NOT real.
 
Peirce says,
if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.* {END)
 
Confidence and assurance are epistemic notions which I called "degree of belief." The phrase "in all probability not" is equivalent to "in no probability." This is the key to how an object that does not exist can cause a mental expectation. If the object has any degree of probability greater than zero, then it can cause a mental expectation. If it does not, then there is no causal influence. Objects with no causal influence are not real objects.
 
The phrase "in no probability" is an epistemic interpretation of the gamma graphs. It means "in no possible state of affairs."  What is a "state of affairs?" It is a collection of  "promises previously made." But more than that, it is the number of promises that are true measured against the total number of promises. The logical consequence is a mental expectation.  The antecedent is a degree of probability greater than zero. The philosophical significance is that the reality of the object is tied to the expectation.
 
Jim W
 
Peirce says,
Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?


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Jim Willgoose | 2 Jun 2008 18:40
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RE: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Gnox and List,
 
If a child announces that "A cow will jump over the moon tommorrow," would we say that the child has unreal expectations?  how far can this be extended before we must conclude that nothing is announced or there is no mental expectation? If a child announces that 'Tommorrow the immediate successor of one in a natural number series will be five,"  would we say that the child has unreal expectations or no expectations at all?
 
Jim W
From: jimwillgoose <at> msn.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:08:19 -0500

.ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}

Gnox,
You say,
 
The question Peirce is addressing in this case is whether the the future performance, as the real object of the newspaper announcement, can be said to cause that very sign which brings it into existence. (END)
 
The probability that the event will occur causes the announcement. Where do we differ? I do not think that non-existent objects have any causal powers. I assume that you agree. I separate the reality of the object from existence and make it a part of the past. The probability that the event will occur causes the announcement. There is no "self-fulfilling" prophecy since people might not show up at the theatre. (the theatre could burn down before the next night's performance) A mental expectation does not cause the event to occur. Rather, the real probability of the event ocurring causes notice to be served.
 
Jim W



From: gnox <at> xplornet.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: Re: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:46:53 -0400

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Jim,
 
Peirce does use the word "probability" (rather loosely) in reference to the theatre manager's expectation that the future performance which he announces will really take place. Upon this you seem to be constructing a scenario in which the manager (or perhaps the whole community?) uses the inductive logic of probability to infer that said performance will actually take place. Then you take the validity of that inference to be the reality of the object of the sign -- the sign being either the expectation or the announcement, and its object being the future performance. Is that a reasonably accurate statement of your position?
 
If so, i find your scenario implausible and unnecessary. The manager is not conducting a scientific inquiry or testing a hypothesis; his expectation belongs rather to the universe of self-fulfilling prophecies. His announcement, which Peirce says is "in all probability" based on a realistic assessment of what will happen, is the kind of sign which, as Martin says, "may bring into existence its object." As Peirce explains, it may bring an audience into the theatre, without which the show would not go on. The question Peirce is addressing in this case is whether the the future performance, as the real object of the newspaper announcement, can be said to cause that very sign which brings it into existence. I don't see that the logic of scientific inquiry which you invoke addresses that question. But i think any further explanation on my part would be even less relevant, so i'll stop there. I don't have anything positive to add to this thread beyond what Martin, Jacob, Auke and i have already said.
 
        gnox
 
}But the world, mind, is, was and will be writing its own wrunes for ever, man, on all matters that fall under the ban of our infrarational senses ... [Finnegans Wake 19]{
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Gnox,
I was beginning to think that I was reading a different manuscript. The text inludes what Peirce underlined and wasn't an editorial decision by Joe. You ask for the identity of the real object.  I say it is a probability value greater than zero. That is the identity condition for a future, real object.  I don't want to say it exists because that is controversial. So, suppose an object with zero degree probability. That object is NOT real.
 
Peirce says,
if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.* {END)
 
Confidence and assurance are epistemic notions which I called "degree of belief." The phrase "in all probability not" is equivalent to "in no probability." This is the key to how an object that does not exist can cause a mental expectation. If the object has any degree of probability greater than zero, then it can cause a mental expectation. If it does not, then there is no causal influence. Objects with no causal influence are not real objects.
 
The phrase "in no probability" is an epistemic interpretation of the gamma graphs. It means "in no possible state of affairs."  What is a "state of affairs?" It is a collection of  "promises previously made." But more than that, it is the number of promises that are true measured against the total number of promises. The logical consequence is a mental expectation.  The antecedent is a degree of probability greater than zero. The philosophical significance is that the reality of the object is tied to the expectation.
 
Jim W
 
Peirce says,
Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?


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Jim Willgoose | 2 Jun 2008 21:36
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RE: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Joe,
 
My opinion is that the real object lies in the past and its existence lies in the future. The identity of the real object is a probability greater than zero and its existence is not a probability at all.  It either will occur or will not. Does this make any sense?
 
Jim W


From: ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:26:03 -0500

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A frequently recurring topic in discussion of Peirce is his view that the object of a sign relates to it as cause of it, which he sometimes expresses in saying that the object "determines" the sign (or is a "determinant" of it).  Among other things, this raises the question of how that can be in the case where the object of the sign does not exist prior to the occurrence of the sign.  (This is, of course, a stock objection to the use of the conception of final causation in particular.)  Peirce addresses that in the passage below, which is from an unpublished manuscript of 1909.  I cannot say that I fully understand it and am curious as to what others think of it. 
 
(Anything appearing within square brackets is editorial in origin.  Emphasis is in the original.  I have added some paragraphing to make it easier to follow the line of thought — there is no paragraphing at all in the MS — and I have occasionally altered the punctuation in the interest of perspicuity: none of these changes seemed questionable enough to warrant cluttering up the text with editorial indicators or footnotes.)
 
Joe Ransdell
 
 
------------------------------------
 
 
Charles Peirce on the object of a sign as cause of the sign
From unpublished MS 634 (Sept. 1909), pp. 23-28
 
 
        It may be asserted (vague as assertion be) that in every case an influence upon the Sign emanates from its Object, and that this emanation's influence then proceeds from the Sign and produces, and is capable of producing — and partly at least, in a mental way — an effect that may be called the Interpretant, or interpreting action, which consummates the agency of the Sign.
 
        The reader may hesitate to admit that the Object always influences the Sign.  A New York newspaper, for instance, daily prints a prediction of what the weather in New York will be on the following day; and this subsequent New York weather is, indisputably, the Object to which that predictive Sign relates. But how, it may be asked, can the state of weather have acted on a sheet of paper that was printed, sold, used, and destroyed long before that state of things existed? Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?
 
        Here, in the preface, the reader can only be requested to accept the phrase as a figurative one, although when the meaning of the word "cause" comes to be analyzed later he may come to acknowledge that it is strictly true that final causes do act mentally. He will even now admit that if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.*
* [Peirce's footnote]  A consequent in logic is a fact whose truth follows from another fact, its antecedent, while the consequence is the conditional truth in fact according to which the consequent follows from the antecedent.
 
        But the matter shall be further considered in the sequel. It may be well now to take the notice of another class of cases for which the reader may not at once see the aptitude of describing a Sign as something which, being influenced by an emanation from a real Object (meaning by that expression an Object really outside the Sign to which the Sign intends or pretends to conform), deflects that influence upon an interpreting mind. For suppose the sign be the order "Ground Arms!" What, it may be asked, is the real Object that such a Sign represents? The answer is that the order is to the soldier not only a stimulus to a habit of going through the commanded action of his muscles — for if it be purely spinal, so that the mind has no part at all in the action, this can hardly be considered as the Interpretant of a Sign, in the sense in which these terms will here be taken — but the order is also for the soldier the voice of rightful authority and of duty, to which he owes a hearty allegiance. If the reader objects that duty is not a real Object but only an idea, then he is entreated to read the whole of the first of the following essays, which may, it is hoped, induce him to alter this opinion.**
** [Editorial footnote (Ransdell)]  The essay referred to is the first two papers of the six-paper series called "Illustrations of the Logic of Science" of 1877-78 (published in Popular Science Monthly) — in other words, "The Fixation of Belief" and "How to Make Our Ideas Clear",  regarded as the two parts of a single essay.  Peirce was revising these and other papers during this period for purposes of a book of essays explaining the basis of the new logic as he conceived it. 
 
        To have that effect is one of the main purposes of the book. For the writer is deeply convinced that it is an error of the gravest importance, upon which, were it consistently adhered to, as it never is, all science would go to shipwreck, and that even our day's almost universal inconsistent half-acceptance of it robs life of its greatest joy and often of the chiefest part of its value. That which is not real is a figment of some individual mind or groups of minds, and whether the soldier's conception of his duty be correct or not, duty itself, though it is an idea, is not a mistaken way of thinking.
 
        Besides, the phrase "the real Object of a Sign" does not imply that the Sign is altogether veracious. The word "witch" is a sign having a "real Object" in the sense in which this phrase is used, namely to mean a supposedly real Object, not the Sign, and in intention or pretension not created by the Sign, and consequently professedly real as far as the action of the Sign is concerned. It is real in the sense in which a dream is a real appearance to a person in sleep, although it be not an appearance of objects that are Real. In contradistinction to the class of signs to which the word "witch" belongs — that is, names of impossible fictions, one might take "Norse discoverer of a part of New England." To the present writer's mind it is so inconceivable, in view of the imaginative genius of that people, that the utterly prosaic diary of the voyage of Erik should be a work of imagination, that were it not for the fact that some writers (very likely acquainted with Icelandic literature, it must be confessed) have believed it to be a fiction, that the phrase would not be given as an example of a name whose Object is of doubtful existence. But considering that those persons have enjoyed a high local reputation, their opinion may be conceded to throw doubts on the truth of this very prosaic narrative.
 
[END PASSAGE FROM PEIRCE]
 
 
Joseph Ransdell
ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
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jacob longshore | 2 Jun 2008 22:31
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Re: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Jim,

Your view on the object has support by Peirce; to know something is to know the memory of it - knowing the present is actually knowing something that's already past. I don't have the New Elements of Mathematics on me, but I think it's in there. You can probably find similar passages in Writings or the CP.

jacob

----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Willgoose <jimwillgoose <at> msn.com>
To: Peirce Discussion Forum <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 9:36:52 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)

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Joe,
 
My opinion is that the real object lies in the past and its existence lies in the future. The identity of the real object is a probability greater than zero and its existence is not a probability at all.  It either will occur or will not. Does this make any sense?
 
Jim W


From: ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:26:03 -0500

.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}
A frequently recurring topic in discussion of Peirce is his view that the object of a sign relates to it as cause of it, which he sometimes expresses in saying that the object "determines" the sign (or is a "determinant" of it).  Among other things, this raises the question of how that can be in the case where the object of the sign does not exist prior to the occurrence of the sign.  (This is, of course, a stock objection to the use of the conception of final causation in particular.)  Peirce addresses that in the passage below, which is from an unpublished manuscript of 1909.  I cannot say that I fully understand it and am curious as to what others think of it. 
 
(Anything appearing within square brackets is editorial in origin.  Emphasis is in the original.  I have added some paragraphing to make it easier to follow the line of thought — there is no paragraphing at all in the MS — and I have occasionally altered the punctuation in the interest of perspicuity: none of these changes seemed questionable enough to warrant cluttering up the text with editorial indicators or footnotes.)
 
Joe Ransdell
 
 
------------------------------------
 
 
Charles Peirce on the object of a sign as cause of the sign
From unpublished MS 634 (Sept. 1909), pp. 23-28
 
 
        It may be asserted (vague as assertion be) that in every case an influence upon the Sign emanates from its Object, and that this emanation'sinfluence then proceeds from the Sign and produces, and is capable of producing— and partly at least, in a mental way— an effect that may be called the Interpretant, or interpreting action, which consummates the agency of the Sign.
 
        The reader may hesitate to admit that the Object always influences the Sign.  A New York newspaper, for instance, daily prints a prediction of what the weather in New York will be on the following day; and this subsequent New York weather is, indisputably, the Object to which that predictive Sign relates. But how, it may be asked, can the state of weather have acted on a sheet of paper that was printed, sold, used, and destroyed long before that state of things existed? Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?
 
        Here, in the preface, the reader can only be requested to accept the phrase as a figurative one, although when the meaning of the word "cause" comes to be analyzed later he may come to acknowledge that it is strictly true that final causes do act mentally. He will even now admit that if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.*
* [Peirce's footnote]  A consequent in logic is a fact whose truth follows from another fact, its antecedent, while the consequence is the conditional truth in fact according to which the consequent follows from the antecedent.
 
        But the matter shall be further considered in the sequel. It may be well now to take the notice of another class of cases for which the reader may not at once see the aptitude of describing a Sign as something which, being influenced by an emanation from a real Object (meaning by that expression an Object really outside the Sign to which the Sign intends or pretends to conform), deflects that influence upon an interpreting mind. For suppose the sign be the order "Ground Arms!" What, it may be asked, is the real Object that such a Sign represents? The answer is that the order is to the soldier not only a stimulus to a habit of going through the commanded action of his muscles — for if it be purely spinal, so that the mind has no part at all in the action, this can hardly be considered as the Interpretant of a Sign, in the sense in which these terms will here be taken — but the order is also for the soldier the voice of rightful authority and of duty, to which he owes a hearty allegiance. If the reader objects that duty is not a real Object but only an idea, then he is entreated to read the whole of the first of the following essays, which may, it is hoped, induce him to alter this opinion.**
** [Editorial footnote (Ransdell)]  The essay referred to is the first two papers of the six-paper series called "Illustrations of the Logic of Science" of 1877-78 (published in Popular Science Monthly) — in other words, "The Fixation of Belief" and "How to Make Our Ideas Clear",  regarded as the two parts of a single essay.  Peirce was revising these and other papers during this period for purposes of a book of essays explaining the basis of the new logic as he conceived it. 
 
        To have that effect is one of the main purposes of the book. For the writer is deeply convinced that it is an error of the gravest importance, upon which, were it consistently adhered to, as it never is, all science would go to shipwreck, and that even our day's almost universal inconsistent half-acceptance of it robs life of its greatest joy and often of the chiefest part of itsvalue. That which is not real is a figment of some individual mind or groups of minds, and whether the soldier's conception of his duty be correct or not, duty itself, though it is an idea, is not a mistaken way of thinking.
 
        Besides, the phrase "the real Object of a Sign" does not imply that the Sign is altogether veracious. The word "witch" is a sign having a "real Object" in the sense in which this phrase is used, namely to mean a supposedly real Object, not the Sign, and in intention or pretension not created by the Sign, and consequently professedly real as far as the action of the Sign is concerned. It is real in the sense in which a dream is a real appearance to a person in sleep, although it be not an appearance of objects that are Real. In contradistinction to the class of signs to which the word "witch" belongs—that is, names of impossible fictions, one might take "Norse discoverer of a part of New England." To the present writer's mind it is so inconceivable, in view of the imaginative genius of that people, that the utterly prosaic diary of the voyage of Erik should be a work of imagination, that were it not for the fact that some writers (very likely acquainted with Icelandic literature, it must be confessed) have believed it to be a fiction, that the phrase would not be given as an example of a name whose Object is of doubtful existence. But considering that those persons have enjoyed a high local reputation, their opinion may be conceded to throw doubts on the truth of this very prosaic narrative.
 
[END PASSAGE FROM PEIRCE]
 
 
Joseph Ransdell
ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
ARISBE website:   http://www.cspeirce.com/
PEIRCE-L archives:
 
 

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jacob longshore | 2 Jun 2008 22:36
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Re: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Jim,

Forgot to get to the existence part. I'm not sure about that one, at least as Peirce defines existence in terms of reaction. That would be a hic et nunc thing. So I'd have to ask you how your sense of "existence" and "reality" differ, from each other and from Peirce's definitions. I'm not saying you're wrong; it's just that it doesn't strike me as Peircean, and that's what I've buried my head in for a while. I'd just like to know better the point you're making.

best,
jacob

----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Willgoose <jimwillgoose <at> msn.com>
To: Peirce Discussion Forum <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 9:36:52 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)

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Joe,
 
My opinion is that the real object lies in the past and its existence lies in the future. The identity of the real object is a probability greater than zero and its existence is not a probability at all.  It either will occur or will not. Does this make any sense?
 
Jim W


From: ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:26:03 -0500

.ExternalClass .EC_EmailQuote {margin-left:1pt;padding-left:4pt;border-left:#800000 2px solid;}
A frequently recurring topic in discussion of Peirce is his view that the object of a sign relates to it as cause of it, which he sometimes expresses in saying that the object "determines" the sign (or is a "determinant" of it).  Among other things, this raises the question of how that can be in the case where the object of the sign does not exist prior to the occurrence of the sign.  (This is, of course, a stock objection to the use of the conception of final causation in particular.)  Peirce addresses that in the passage below, which is from an unpublished manuscript of 1909.  I cannot say that I fully understand it and am curious as to what others think of it. 
 
(Anything appearing within square brackets is editorial in origin.  Emphasis is in the original.  I have added some paragraphing to make it easier to follow the line of thought — there is no paragraphing at all in the MS — and I have occasionally altered the punctuation in the interest of perspicuity: none of these changes seemed questionable enough to warrant cluttering up the text with editorial indicators or footnotes.)
 
Joe Ransdell
 
 
------------------------------------
 
 
Charles Peirce on the object of a sign as cause of the sign
From unpublished MS 634 (Sept. 1909), pp. 23-28
 
 
        It may be asserted (vague as assertion be) that in every case an influence upon the Sign emanates from its Object, and that this emanation's influence then proceeds from the Sign and produces, and is capable of producing — and partly at least, in a mental way — an effect that may be called the Interpretant, or interpreting action, which consummates the agency of the Sign.
 
        The reader may hesitate to admit that the Object always influences the Sign.  A New York newspaper, for instance, daily prints a prediction of what the weather in New York will be on the following day; and this subsequent New York weather is, indisputably, the Object to which that predictive Sign relates. But how, it may be asked, can the state of weather have acted on a sheet of paper that was printed, sold, used, and destroyed long before that state of things existed? Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?
 
        Here, in the preface, the reader can only be requested to accept the phrase as a figurative one, although when the meaning of the word "cause" comes to be analyzed later he may come to acknowledge that it is strictly true that final causes do act mentally. He will even now admit that if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.*
* [Peirce's footnote]  A consequent in logic is a fact whose truth follows from another fact, its antecedent, while the consequence is the conditional truth in fact according to which the consequent follows from the antecedent.
 
        But the matter shall be further considered in the sequel. It may be well now to take the notice of another class of cases for which the reader may not at once see the aptitude of describing a Sign as something which, being influenced by an emanation from a real Object (meaning by that expression an Object really outside the Sign to which the Sign intends or pretends to conform), deflects that influence upon an interpreting mind. For suppose the sign be the order "Ground Arms!" What, it may be asked, is the real Object that such a Sign represents? The answer is that the order is to the soldier not only a stimulus to a habit of going through the commanded action of his muscles — for if it be purely spinal, so that the mind has no part at all in the action, this can hardly be considered as the Interpretant of a Sign, in the sense in which these terms will here be taken — but the order is also for the soldier the voice of rightful authority and of duty, to which he owes a hearty allegiance. If the reader objects that duty is not a real Object but only an idea, then he is entreated to read the whole of the first of the following essays, which may, it is hoped, induce him to alter this opinion.**
** [Editorial footnote (Ransdell)]  The essay referred to is the first two papers of the six-paper series called "Illustrations of the Logic of Science" of 1877-78 (published in Popular Science Monthly) — in other words, "The Fixation of Belief" and "How to Make Our Ideas Clear",  regarded as the two parts of a single essay.  Peirce was revising these and other papers during this period for purposes of a book of essays explaining the basis of the new logic as he conceived it. 
 
        To have that effect is one of the main purposes of the book. For the writer is deeply convinced that it is an error of the gravest importance, upon which, were it consistently adhered to, as it never is, all science would go to shipwreck, and that even our day's almost universal inconsistent half-acceptance of it robs life of its greatest joy and often of the chiefest part of its value. That which is not real is a figment of some individual mind or groups of minds, and whether the soldier's conception of his duty be correct or not, duty itself, though it is an idea, is not a mistaken way of thinking.
 
        Besides, the phrase "the real Object of a Sign" does not imply that the Sign is altogether veracious. The word "witch" is a sign having a "real Object" in the sense in which this phrase is used, namely to mean a supposedly real Object, not the Sign, and in intention or pretension not created by the Sign, and consequently professedly real as far as the action of the Sign is concerned. It is real in the sense in which a dream is a real appearance to a person in sleep, although it be not an appearance of objects that are Real. In contradistinction to the class of signs to which the word "witch" belongs — that is, names of impossible fictions, one might take "Norse discoverer of a part of New England." To the present writer's mind it is so inconceivable, in view of the imaginative genius of that people, that the utterly prosaic diary of the voyage of Erik should be a work of imagination, that were it not for the fact that some writers (very likely acquainted with Icelandic literature, it must be confessed) have believed it to be a fiction, that the phrase would not be given as an example of a name whose Object is of doubtful existence. But considering that those persons have enjoyed a high local reputation, their opinion may be conceded to throw doubts on the truth of this very prosaic narrative.
 
[END PASSAGE FROM PEIRCE]
 
 
Joseph Ransdell
ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
ARISBE website:   http://www.cspeirce.com/
PEIRCE-L archives:
 
 

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Steven Ericsson-Zenith | 2 Jun 2008 22:45
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Re: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)


Dear Jacob,

What do you meaning by "knowing?" I think you mean "the experience of  
the present." That would not be my definition of knowledge, I would  
consider that to be quite distinct. You need to be explicit when  
stating what you mean by "knowledge." This definition seems  
epistemically vacuous to me.

I'd appreciate a more direct reference in Peirce, but later will take  
a look for it.

With respect,
Steven

On Jun 2, 2008, at 1:31 PM, jacob longshore wrote:

>
>
> Jim,
>
> Your view on the object has support by Peirce; to know something is  
> to know the memory of it - knowing the present is actually knowing  
> something that's already past. I don't have the New Elements of  
> Mathematics on me, but I think it's in there. You can probably find  
> similar passages in Writings or the CP.
>
> jacob
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jim Willgoose <jimwillgoose <at> msn.com>
> To: Peirce Discussion Forum <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 9:36:52 PM
> Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS  
> 634.23-28)
>
>
>
> Joe,
>
> My opinion is that the real object lies in the past and its  
> existence lies in the future. The identity of the real object is a  
> probability greater than zero and its existence is not a probability  
> at all.  It either will occur or will not. Does this make any sense?
>
> Jim W
>
>
> From: ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
> To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
> Subject: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS  
> 634.23-28)
> Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:26:03 -0500
>
> A frequently recurring topic in discussion of Peirce is his view  
> that the object of a sign relates to it as cause of it, which he  
> sometimes expresses in saying that the object "determines" the sign  
> (or is a "determinant" of it).  Among other things, this raises the  
> question of how that can be in the case where the object of the sign  
> does not exist prior to the occurrence of the sign.  (This is, of  
> course, a stock objection to the use of the conception of final  
> causation in particular.)  Peirce addresses that in the passage  
> below, which is from an unpublished manuscript of 1909.  I cannot  
> say that I fully understand it and am curious as to what others  
> think of it.
>
> (Anything appearing within square brackets is editorial in origin.   
> Emphasis is in the original.  I have added some paragraphing to make  
> it easier to follow the line of thought — there is no paragraphing  
> at all in the MS — and I have occasionally altered the punctuation  
> in the interest of perspicuity: none of these changes seemed  
> questionable enough to warrant cluttering up the text with editorial  
> indicators or footnotes.)
>
> Joe Ransdell
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Charles Peirce on the object of a sign as cause of the sign
> From unpublished MS 634 (Sept. 1909), pp. 23-28
>
>
>        It may be asserted (vague as assertion be) that in every case  
> an influence upon the Sign emanates from its Object, and that this  
> emanation'sinfluence then proceeds from the Sign and produces, and  
> is capable of producing— and partly at least, in a mental way— an  
> effect that may be called the Interpretant, or interpreting action,  
> which consummates the agency of the Sign.
>
>        The reader may hesitate to admit that the Object always  
> influences the Sign.  A New York newspaper, for instance, daily  
> prints a prediction of what the weather in New York will be on the  
> following day; and this subsequent New York weather is,  
> indisputably, the Object to which that predictive Sign relates. But  
> how, it may be asked, can the state of weather have acted on a sheet  
> of paper that was printed, sold, used, and destroyed long before  
> that state of things existed? Some newspapers print certain promises  
> as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and  
> how can those performances have influenced promises previously made,  
> that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which  
> the performances would be given up, and not take place?
>
>        Here, in the preface, the reader can only be requested to  
> accept the phrase as a figurative one, although when the meaning of  
> the word "cause" comes to be analyzed later he may come to  
> acknowledge that it is strictly true that final causes do act  
> mentally. He will even now admit that if a given performance had not  
> in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all  
> probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to  
> announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of  
> causation, so as to make it includelogical consequence (which is  
> never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically  
> included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the  
> statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the  
> expectation of it.*
> * [Peirce's footnote]  A consequent in logic is a fact whose truth  
> follows from another fact, itsantecedent, while the consequence is  
> the conditional truth in fact according to which the consequent  
> follows from the antecedent.
>
>        But the matter shall be further considered in the sequel. It  
> may be well now to take the notice of another class of cases for  
> which the reader may not at once see the aptitude of describing a  
> Sign as something which, being influenced by an emanation from a  
> real Object (meaning by that expression an Object really outside the  
> Sign to which the Sign intends or pretends to conform), deflects  
> that influence upon an interpreting mind. For suppose the sign be  
> the order "Ground Arms!" What, it may be asked, is the real Object  
> that such a Sign represents? The answer is that the order is to the  
> soldier not only a stimulus to a habit of going through the  
> commanded action of his muscles — for if it be purely spinal, so  
> that the mind has no part at all in the action, this can hardly be  
> considered as the Interpretant of a Sign, in the sense in which  
> these terms will here be taken— but the order is also for the  
> soldier the voice of rightful authority and of duty, to which he  
> owes a hearty allegiance. If the reader objects that duty is not a  
> real Object but only an idea, then he is entreated to read the whole  
> of the first of the following essays, which may, it is hoped, induce  
> him to alter this opinion.**
> ** [Editorial footnote (Ransdell)]  The essay referred to is the  
> first two papers of the six-paper series called "Illustrations of  
> the Logic of Science" of 1877-78 (published in Popular Science  
> Monthly) — in other words, "The Fixation of Belief" and "How to Make  
> Our Ideas Clear",  regarded as the two parts of a single essay.   
> Peirce was revising these and other papers during this period for  
> purposes of a book of essays explaining the basis of the new logic  
> as he conceived it.
>
>        To have that effect is one of the main purposes of the book.  
> For the writer is deeply convinced that it is an error of the  
> gravest importance, upon which, were it consistently adhered to, as  
> it never is, all science would go to shipwreck, and that even our  
> day's almost universal inconsistent half-acceptance of it robs life  
> of its greatest joy and often of the chiefest part of itsvalue. That  
> which is not real is a figment of some individual mind or groups of  
> minds, and whether the soldier's conception of his duty be correct  
> or not, duty itself, though it is an idea, is not a mistaken way of  
> thinking.
>
>        Besides, the phrase "the real Object of a Sign" does not  
> imply that the Sign is altogether veracious. The word "witch" is a  
> sign having a "real Object" in the sense in which this phrase is  
> used, namely to mean a supposedly real Object, not the Sign, and in  
> intention or pretension not created by the Sign, and consequently  
> professedly real as far as the action of the Sign is concerned. It  
> is real in the sense in which a dream is a real appearance to a  
> person in sleep, although it be not an appearance of objects that  
> are Real. In contradistinction to the class of signs to which the  
> word "witch" belongs—that is, names of impossible fictions, one  
> might take "Norse discoverer of a part of New England." To the  
> present writer's mind it is so inconceivable, in view of the  
> imaginative genius of that people, that the utterly prosaic diary of  
> the voyage of Erik should be a work of imagination, that were it not  
> for the fact that some writers (very likely acquainted with  
> Icelandic literature, it must be confessed) have believed it to be a  
> fiction, that the phrase would not be given as an example of a name  
> whose Object is of doubtful existence. But considering that those  
> persons have enjoyed a high local reputation, their opinion may be  
> conceded to throw doubts on the truth of this very prosaic narrative.
>
> [END PASSAGE FROM PEIRCE]
>
>
> Joseph Ransdell
> ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
> ARISBE website:   http://www.cspeirce.com/
> PEIRCE-L archives:
>   http://lyris.ttu.edu/read/?forum=peirce-l
>   http://news.gmane.org/gmane.science.philosophy.peirce
>
>
>
> E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft.
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>
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>
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> broken)
>
> or send a blank email to leave-612415-32372.893f93375b0b69ee6854a8c70aa78689 <at> lyris.ttu.edu
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Jim Willgoose | 3 Jun 2008 00:25
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RE: CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)



Hi Jacob,
 
I have been trying to separate the two ideas. The existence of a future object could be construed as talk about a "possible existent."  But this is controversial since "possible existent" could suggest predetermination.  On the other hand, future objects do not exist since they are non-actual. So I think that we should restrict existence to actuality.  If the identity of the real object , as I maintain, is a probability greater than zero, then we can talk about possible "states of affairs" without existence.  Existence is not a probability at all.
 
I am trying to figure how the real object is a logical consequence of a mental expectation such that we can say the real object causes the mental expectation. Could there be mental expectations, commands, and announcements influenced by objects with zero degree probability?
 
Jim W   

 
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:36:10 -0700
From: strateia8 <at> yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu

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Jim,

Forgot to get to the existence part. I'm not sure about that one, at least as Peirce defines existence in terms of reaction. That would be a hic et nunc thing. So I'd have to ask you how your sense of "existence" and "reality" differ, from each other and from Peirce's definitions. I'm not saying you're wrong; it's just that it doesn't strike me as Peircean, and that's what I've buried my head in for a while. I'd just like to know better the point you're making.

best,
jacob

----- Original Message ----
From: Jim Willgoose <jimwillgoose <at> msn.com>
To: Peirce Discussion Forum <peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 9:36:52 PM
Subject: RE: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)

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Joe,
 
My opinion is that the real object lies in the past and its existence lies in the future. The identity of the real object is a probability greater than zero and its existence is not a probability at all.  It either will occur or will not. Does this make any sense?
 
Jim W


From: ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
To: peirce-l <at> lyris.ttu.edu
Subject: [peirce-l] CSP on the object as cause of the sign (MS 634.23-28)
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:26:03 -0500

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A frequently recurring topic in discussion of Peirce is his view that the object of a sign relates to it as cause of it, which he sometimes expresses in saying that the object "determines" the sign (or is a "determinant" of it).  Among other things, this raises the question of how that can be in the case where the object of the sign does not exist prior to the occurrence of the sign.  (This is, of course, a stock objection to the use of the conception of final causation in particular.)  Peirce addresses that in the passage below, which is from an unpublished manuscript of 1909.  I cannot say that I fully understand it and am curious as to what others think of it. 
 
(Anything appearing within square brackets is editorial in origin.  Emphasis is in the original.  I have added some paragraphing to make it easier to follow the line of thought — there is no paragraphing at all in the MS — and I have occasionally altered the punctuation in the interest of perspicuity: none of these changes seemed questionable enough to warrant cluttering up the text with editorial indicators or footnotes.)
 
Joe Ransdell
 
 
------------------------------------
 
 
Charles Peirce on the object of a sign as cause of the sign
From unpublished MS 634 (Sept. 1909), pp. 23-28
 
 
        It may be asserted (vague as assertion be) that in every case an influence upon the Sign emanates from its Object, and that this emanation's influence then proceeds from the Sign and produces, and is capable of producing — and partly at least, in a mental way — an effect that may be called the Interpretant, or interpreting action, which consummates the agency of the Sign.
 
        The reader may hesitate to admit that the Object always influences the Sign.  A New York newspaper, for instance, daily prints a prediction of what the weather in New York will be on the following day; and this subsequent New York weather is, indisputably, the Object to which that predictive Sign relates. But how, it may be asked, can the state of weather have acted on a sheet of paper that was printed, sold, used, and destroyed long before that state of things existed? Some newspapers print certain promises as to the performances at the theatres on the following night; and how can those performances have influenced promises previously made, that have caused those assemblages of the audiences without which the performances would be given up, and not take place?
 
        Here, in the preface, the reader can only be requested to accept the phrase as a figurative one, although when the meaning of the word "cause" comes to be analyzed later he may come to acknowledge that it is strictly true that final causes do act mentally. He will even now admit that if a given performance had not in reality been about to come off, the theatre-manager would in all probability not have had the confidence and consequent assurance to announce it; so that if the reader will only widen his concept of causation, so as to make it include logical consequence (which is never absolutely necessary when the consequent is not identically included in the antecedent), he will be able to assent to the statement that real futurity is sometimes a mental cause of the expectation of it.*
* [Peirce's footnote]  A consequent in logic is a fact whose truth follows from another fact, its antecedent, while the consequence is the conditional truth in fact according to which the consequent follows from the antecedent.
 
        But the matter shall be further considered in the sequel. It may be well now to take the notice of another class of cases for which the reader may not at once see the aptitude of describing a Sign as something which, being influenced by an emanation from a real Object (meaning by that expression an Object really outside the Sign to which the Sign intends or pretends to conform), deflects that influence upon an interpreting mind. For suppose the sign be the order "Ground Arms!" What, it may be asked, is the real Object that such a Sign represents? The answer is that the order is to the soldier not only a stimulus to a habit of going through the commanded action of his muscles — for if it be purely spinal, so that the mind has no part at all in the action, this can hardly be considered as the Interpretant of a Sign, in the sense in which these terms will here be taken — but the order is also for the soldier the voice of rightful authority and of duty, to which he owes a hearty allegiance. If the reader objects that duty is not a real Object but only an idea, then he is entreated to read the whole of the first of the following essays, which may, it is hoped, induce him to alter this opinion.**
** [Editorial footnote (Ransdell)]  The essay referred to is the first two papers of the six-paper series called "Illustrations of the Logic of Science" of 1877-78 (published in Popular Science Monthly) — in other words, "The Fixation of Belief" and "How to Make Our Ideas Clear",  regarded as the two parts of a single essay.  Peirce was revising these and other papers during this period for purposes of a book of essays explaining the basis of the new logic as he conceived it. 
 
        To have that effect is one of the main purposes of the book. For the writer is deeply convinced that it is an error of the gravest importance, upon which, were it consistently adhered to, as it never is, all science would go to shipwreck, and that even our day's almost universal inconsistent half-acceptance of it robs life of its greatest joy and often of the chiefest part of its value. That which is not real is a figment of some individual mind or groups of minds, and whether the soldier's conception of his duty be correct or not, duty itself, though it is an idea, is not a mistaken way of thinking.
 
        Besides, the phrase "the real Object of a Sign" does not imply that the Sign is altogether veracious. The word "witch" is a sign having a "real Object" in the sense in which this phrase is used, namely to mean a supposedly real Object, not the Sign, and in intention or pretension not created by the Sign, and consequently professedly real as far as the action of the Sign is concerned. It is real in the sense in which a dream is a real appearance to a person in sleep, although it be not an appearance of objects that are Real. In contradistinction to the class of signs to which the word "witch" belongs — that is, names of impossible fictions, one might take "Norse discoverer of a part of New England." To the present writer's mind it is so inconceivable, in view of the imaginative genius of that people, that the utterly prosaic diary of the voyage of Erik should be a work of imagination, that were it not for the fact that some writers (very likely acquainted with Icelandic literature, it must be confessed) have believed it to be a fiction, that the phrase would not be given as an example of a name whose Object is of doubtful existence. But considering that those persons have enjoyed a high local reputation, their opinion may be conceded to throw doubts on the truth of this very prosaic narrative.
 
[END PASSAGE FROM PEIRCE]
 
 
Joseph Ransdell
ransdell <at> cspeirce.com
ARISBE website:   http://www.cspeirce.com/
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