Ryan Kaldari | 1 Feb 01:09 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

I would definitely agree with that. We may be the last site on the
Internet to customize our CSS for Mac IE :)

Ryan Kaldari

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 5:53 PM, John Vandenberg <jayvdb <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Ryan Kaldari <kaldari <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> This entire discussion about support for IE 5 Mac is pointless. IE for
>> Mac used a completely different rendering engine than IE for Windows
>> and was actually (pretty-much) standards compliant. We don't need to
>> worry about what browser people on Mac Classic should migrate to for
>> viewing Wikipedia. I'm reasonably confident that Wikipedia would
>> render fine in IE 5 for Mac (or iCab, or Classilla).
>
> In this thread, Chad suggested that the IE for Mac stylesheet could be
> phased out.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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>
Gregory Maxwell | 1 Feb 03:27 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 6:34 PM, John Vandenberg <jayvdb <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>> Even then, there is
>> <http://www.askvg.com/download-mozilla-firefox-30-portable-edition-no-installation-needed/>
>
> Excuse me?  please read the earlier posts in this thread.
>
> I am talking about IE for Mac Classic.
>
> iCab support?  Is Classilla a sensible replacement for people still
> using IE for Mac?  etc.

I couldn't get classzilla running on a blue and white G3 running 9.0.2
when I tried it a couple months ago.

I have a couple of these systems for driving some embedded hardware
that never got moved to anything more modern, they'd be perfectly
adequate systems for webbrowsing if you could get a workably up to
date webbrowser on them: The IE the OS ships with hard locks the
machine on apple.com of all places!  I was only bothering to attempt
this because I wanted to get a screenshot of cortado playing videos on
something very old, and I only spent an hour or so on it. (Wikipedia,
OTOH, worked fine with the IE that comes with the OS on those systems)

But seriously. Outright *excluding* these old things shouldn't even be
a consideration. Even a very small audience (like 0.02%) is tens of
thousands of readers. Mediawiki (and the WMF deployment) already has
many features which don't work / don't work well on fairly old
systems, so that bridge has already been crossed, but outright
dropping support for basic use?

(Continue reading)

Ryan Kaldari | 1 Feb 04:37 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

Who said anything about dropping support for basic use? I would be
surprised if you could tell much difference on Mac IE between
Wikipedia with the custom stylesheet and without. But perhaps you
could give it a try and report back to us, rather than relying on my
wild speculations :)

Ryan Kaldari

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 6:34 PM, John Vandenberg <jayvdb <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Even then, there is
>>> <http://www.askvg.com/download-mozilla-firefox-30-portable-edition-no-installation-needed/>
>>
>> Excuse me?  please read the earlier posts in this thread.
>>
>> I am talking about IE for Mac Classic.
>>
>> iCab support?  Is Classilla a sensible replacement for people still
>> using IE for Mac?  etc.
>
> I couldn't get classzilla running on a blue and white G3 running 9.0.2
> when I tried it a couple months ago.
>
> I have a couple of these systems for driving some embedded hardware
> that never got moved to anything more modern, they'd be perfectly
> adequate systems for webbrowsing if you could get a workably up to
> date webbrowser on them: The IE the OS ships with hard locks the
> machine on apple.com of all places!  I was only bothering to attempt
> this because I wanted to get a screenshot of cortado playing videos on
> something very old, and I only spent an hour or so on it. (Wikipedia,
(Continue reading)

John Vandenberg | 1 Feb 05:49 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Ryan Kaldari <kaldari <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Who said anything about dropping support for basic use? I would be
> surprised if you could tell much difference on Mac IE between
> Wikipedia with the custom stylesheet and without. But perhaps you
> could give it a try and report back to us, rather than relying on my
> wild speculations :)

Is this file unused?

http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/monobook/IEMacFixes.css?revision=11898&view=markup

It seems that the IE for Mac style is littered through:

http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/monobook/main.css?revision=56937&view=markup

... with an interesting comment:

/*
** IE/Mac fixes, hope to find a validating way to move this
** to a separate stylesheet. This would work but doesn't validate:
**  <at> import("IEMacFixes.css");
*/

Would it be acceptable to use a conditional include?

http://stopdesign.com/examples/ie5mac-bpf/

Alternatively, we could load the stylesheet at runtime with
JavaScript.  That approach is already being used for IE specific
JavaScript fixes.
(Continue reading)

Peter Gervai | 1 Feb 08:56 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

What about creating an "monobo'oldies" theme for them? I mean, move
current stuff to oldies, and drop elders support from monobook.

--

-- 
 byte-byte,
    grin
Aryeh Gregor | 1 Feb 15:54 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> But seriously. Outright *excluding* these old things shouldn't even be
> a consideration. Even a very small audience (like 0.02%) is tens of
> thousands of readers. Mediawiki (and the WMF deployment) already has
> many features which don't work / don't work well on fairly old
> systems, so that bridge has already been crossed, but outright
> dropping support for basic use?

I have to say, my knee-jerk reaction was "Yes, let's drop IE5 support
already", but on consideration I have to agree with you.  We shouldn't
feel obliged to go out of our way to ensure these browsers still work,
but as long as they do mostly work right now, there's no reason to
drop support.  I've confirmed that with IE50Fixes.css, Monobook is
still perfectly usable in IE5 (using ies4linux), but without it, the
page collapses to an unusable mess.

I don't think reducing <head> clutter is enough of a reason to drop
support here.  The clutter will go away anyway if/when Vector becomes
the default skin -- then IE5 users can still use Monobook.  Why not
let them?

On the other hand, IEMacFixes.css is unused, so I've deleted it in
r61787.  We do have IE Mac fixes (and I think also fixes for other IE
versions) in Monobook's main.css using selector hacks and such, but
they're basically harmless, so let's leave them.  Let's also re-add
the 5.0 and 5.5 stylesheets, unless someone has a better reason than
saving two lines in the <head> until we switch to Vector.
Thomas Dalton | 1 Feb 16:14 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On 1 February 2010 14:54, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think reducing <head> clutter is enough of a reason to drop
> support here.  The clutter will go away anyway if/when Vector becomes
> the default skin -- then IE5 users can still use Monobook.  Why not
> let them?

It's not just the clutter, though, it's the effort of maintaining it.
The more browsers you support, the more browsers you have to test
changes in.

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Sylvain Leroux | 1 Feb 16:33 2010
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Re: Managing group of pages in white-list

bawolff a écrit :
> I was involved with a wiki that had similar needs. I made a small
> little extension to whitelist a namespace -
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Whitelist_Namespaces Perhaps
> it might be useful to you.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bawolff
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> 
> 

Thanks bawolff,

That /almost/ does the trick. But something a little bit more complex was 
needed. So I wrote http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Whitelist_Regex.

It adds an extra filtering pass to only whitelist those pages that match a given 
regular expression.

I add the {{Page security extension disclaimer}} template on top of the 
description page. But I don't think it adds more security issues that the 
"standard" gwWhiteListRead. Anyway, feel free to tell if I'm wrong. Or if there 
is any problem, remark, suggestion about this extension!

Best regards,
(Continue reading)

Aryeh Gregor | 1 Feb 16:43 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not just the clutter, though, it's the effort of maintaining it.

I don't suggest we maintain it.  Just leave it alone.  If other
changes happen to cause IE5 to break, then remove it, but don't remove
*existing* IE5 support as long as IE5 still happens to work with no
extra effort on our part.
David Gerard | 1 Feb 19:28 2010
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Re: "Google phases out support for IE6"

On 1 February 2010 15:43, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton <at> gmail.com> wrote:

>> It's not just the clutter, though, it's the effort of maintaining it.

> I don't suggest we maintain it.  Just leave it alone.  If other
> changes happen to cause IE5 to break, then remove it, but don't remove
> *existing* IE5 support as long as IE5 still happens to work with no
> extra effort on our part.

Yes. If someone actually notices something bitrotting and they tell
us, that's excellent. If they don't, there you go.

That said, there must be *someone* on this list bloody-minded enough
to test Wikipedia in every possible browser and file bugs and patches
accordingly ...

- d.

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