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Siebrand Mazeland | 1 Jan 01:24
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Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Hi Anders Wegge Jakobsen.

First of all the best wishes for 2008 to you.

Please become a part of the Betawiki community so that we can address your concerns. At the moment you appear
to have some reservations that are to vague to address at this point in time.

Cheers! Siebrand

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: wikitech-l-bounces <at> lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces <at> lists.wikimedia.org]
Namens Anders Wegge Jakobsen
Verzonden: maandag 31 december 2007 19:18
Aan: Wikimedia developers
CC: 'MediaWiki internationalisation'; 'Wikimedia Translators'
Onderwerp: Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki

"Siebrand Mazeland" <s.mazeland <at> xs4all.nl> writes:

> * through Betawiki: Betawiki was founded in mid 2005 by Niklas

 ...

> the translators is regularly committed to svn by nikerabbit, and 
> myself. Betawiki also offers a .po export that enables users to use

 Considering the quality of your commits to MessagesDa.php, I consider Betawiki a poor substitute for a
maintainer that actually speaks the language in question. 

--
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Anders Wegge Jakobsen | 1 Jan 01:54
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

"Siebrand Mazeland" <s.mazeland <at> xs4all.nl> writes:

> Hi Anders Wegge Jakobsen.
>
> First of all the best wishes for 2008 to you.
>

> Please become a part of the Betawiki community so that we can
> address your concerns. At the moment you appear to have some
> reservations that are to vague to address at this point in time.

 Plain and simple NO!

 I'm a software developer, and I'm not going to confine myself to a
web interface. I fully accept that this is where the bees knees are,
so I'm not going to stand in the way of progress.

-- 
// Wegge
<http://geowiki.wegge.dk/wiki/Forside> - Alt om geocaching
Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indlæg *EN* gang.

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Anders Wegge Jakobsen | 1 Jan 02:02
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Simetrical <Simetrical+wikilist <at> gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/31/07, Anders Wegge Jakobsen <wegge <at> wegge.dk> wrote:
>>  I'm blaming the result I see. I assume that the tool actually works,
>> so I'm probably blaming the politics, or the people doing the
>> translations. Likely the latter.

> The part I don't understand is, if someone else is doing bad
> translations, and you're doing good translations regardless of them,
> why don't you just replace their bad translations with your good
> ones and move on?

 I have, until now. I just happened to be somewhat PO'ed about being
told between the lines of a spamvertising for betawiki, that I didn't
do a proper job. So now I'm looking forward to see high-quality
translations coming from forcing a particular development tool onto
people.

-- 
// Wegge
<http://geowiki.wegge.dk/wiki/Forside> - Alt om geocaching
Bruger du den gratis spamfighther ser jeg kun dine indlæg *EN* gang.

--

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

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Siebrand Mazeland | 1 Jan 02:06
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Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Hi Wegge.

Too bad you appear to be not willing to be more specific (my interpretation) and enter a dialogue. If you
would come to *any* platform to address specific your concerns, I am certain that you would find that we are
*very* open to any concerns.

As I already explained: i18n is for developers, L10n is for translators. If you choose to be a developer, why
do you choose to translate!?

Repeating myself:
*Localisation or L10n - the process of adapting the software to be as familiar as possible to a specific locale
*Internationalisation or i18n - the process of ensuring that an application is capable of adapting to
local requirements

Please acknowledge that I do not wish to depreciate your efforts in any way. On the contrary: I value *and*
appreciate *any* contribution to MediaWiki localisation.

Kind regards,

Siebrand 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: wikitech-l-bounces@...
[mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@...] Namens Anders
Wegge Jakobsen
Verzonden: dinsdag 1 januari 2008 1:55
Aan: Wikimedia developers
CC: 'MediaWiki internationalisation'; 'Wikimedia Translators'
Onderwerp: Re: [Wikitech-l] An update on localisation in MediaWiki
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Anders Wegge Jakobsen | 1 Jan 02:13
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

"Siebrand Mazeland" <s.mazeland <at> xs4all.nl> writes:

> Hi Wegge.
>

> Too bad you appear to be not willing to be more specific (my
> interpretation) and enter a dialogue. If you would come to *any*
> platform to address specific your concerns, I am certain that you
> would find that we are *very* open to any concerns.

 So far my experience have been the opposite. But my specific concerns
is *any* commit that you have made, that involves MessagesDa. 

> As I already explained: i18n is for developers, L10n is for
> translators. If you choose to be a developer, why do you choose to
> translate!?

 Because noone else does. In addition to that, My personal tak is that
people without some sort of devleoper skill is very ill-suited to do
neither translation, nor localization. The distinction is in and of
itself bogus.

> Repeating myself: *Localisation or L10n - the process of adapting
> the software to be as familiar as possible to a specific locale
> *Internationalisation or i18n - the process of ensuring that an
> application is capable of adapting to local requirements

 Yes, you already said that once. It's a false premise. 

> Please acknowledge that I do not wish to depreciate your efforts in
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Yousef Ourabi | 1 Jan 02:15

Re: How accurate is Special:Version

Thanks for the info and the link. The header mentions that the Apache conf
is always up to date, but is the "Common Settings.php" file up to
date: "http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/CommonSettings.php.html
"

I'm setting up a  local mirror on my desktop and I've got math and wikiheiro
working however there are problems with hierogliphic pages and the
Template:Navbox tags (see attached images).

Trying to figure out where I went wrong and what extension I need to enable
to get the same presentation as wikipedia.

http://yousefourabi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/hiero.png
http://yousefourabi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/navbox.png

Thanks,
Yousef

>
>
>
>
> On 12/30/07, Platonides <Platonides@...> wrote:
> >
> > DanTMan wrote:
> > > Also remember that 100% of all extensions add themselves to the list
> > of
> > > extensions. So it's possible for some custom extensions to exist which
> > > are not listed on [[Special:Version]] of some wiki.
> >
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MinuteElectron | 1 Jan 12:14

Re: How accurate is Special:Version

Yousef Ourabi wrote:
> Thanks for the info and the link. The header mentions that the Apache conf
> is always up to date, but is the "Common Settings.php" file up to
> date: "http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/CommonSettings.php.html
> "
>
> I'm setting up a  local mirror on my desktop and I've got math and wikiheiro
> working however there are problems with hierogliphic pages and the
> Template:Navbox tags (see attached images).
>
> Trying to figure out where I went wrong and what extension I need to enable
> to get the same presentation as wikipedia.
>
> http://yousefourabi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/hiero.png
> http://yousefourabi.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/navbox.png
>   
Have you installed HTMLTidy and enabled it within MediaWiki, it is an 
essential ingredient in most of the even slightly advanced templates as 
it allows mixing of wikitext and HTML tables (as well as a variety of 
other things)?

MinuteElectron.
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Rotem Liss | 1 Jan 12:23
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Siebrand Mazeland wrote:
> As I already explained: i18n is for developers, L10n is for translators. If you choose to be a developer,
why do you choose to translate!?
> 

"Translator" is not only a BetaWiki user. I (and other people) translate
directly in the PHP file(s). One could be both developer and translator, and
even handle both translations and i18n problems.

Generally speaking, it is important not to have conflicts between BetaWiki and
the SVN translators. Indeed, no one owns a language, but some people don't like
to see other people "interfering" their translation work; and if the translation
quality is bad, it is even more annoying. Thus, I suggest that if a trusted
person says a translation quality is bad, it would not be commited; I also
suggest that if a person with SVN rights, who speaks the language, clearly
opposes the current translations in BetaWiki, they will not be commited. If one
doesn't want to use BetaWiki, he still "edits" the MediaWiki messages in
BetaWiki, and BetaWiki translations should not override his translations without
asking him about it.
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Roan Kattouw | 1 Jan 14:05
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Anders Wegge Jakobsen schreef:
> Plain and simple NO!
>  I'm a software developer, and I'm not going to confine myself to a
> web interface. I fully accept that this is where the bees knees are,
> so I'm not going to stand in the way of progress.
>
>   
I don't understand the logic here. You're a software developer, *so* you 
hate web interfaces? Remember that what you're localizing is exactly 
that: a web interface. There's nothing you can do with direct SVN access 
that you can't do through BetaWiki (except for adding comments, maybe? 
Siebrand?), and the latter provides a wikilinked list of untranslated 
messages, which makes it lots easier to find that one message you 
accidentally skipped.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
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Rotem Liss | 1 Jan 14:35
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Re: An update on localisation in MediaWiki

Roan Kattouw wrote:
> I don't understand the logic here. You're a software developer, *so* you 
> hate web interfaces? Remember that what you're localizing is exactly 
> that: a web interface. There's nothing you can do with direct SVN access 
> that you can't do through BetaWiki (except for adding comments, maybe? 
> Siebrand?), and the latter provides a wikilinked list of untranslated 
> messages, which makes it lots easier to find that one message you 
> accidentally skipped.
> 
> Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
> 

It is his own choice. I, for example, think localizing through a web interface
may be slow, and its committing is slower anyway than an immediate "svn commit"
(though possibly faster than a patch applying - no idea about that). Commiting
is the direct way for the one who can do that, and he may use the scripts
"checkLanguage.php" and "rebuildLanguage.php" to simplify the translation work.
When a translation approaches a certain level of completeness, the translator
usually just has to update or add a few messages per time, and for this,
updating the PHP file is better for the ones who have both the commit access and
the PHP knowledge. No doubt BetaWiki is needed for people who don't have commit
access (and don't want to submit patch) or PHP knowledge, and for people who
don't want to directly edit the PHP file; but other people just don't need or
want it.

Anyway, the fact someone doesn't use BetaWiki doesn't mean his concerns should
be ignored: if he says a specific translation quality is bad, and is known to be
a high-level speaker (and translator) of this language, it should not be
commited (this is a general statement, and doesn't necessarily refer to the
translation in question).
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