Philip Sandifer | 1 Oct 04:01 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career


On Sep 30, 2008, at 6:37 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:

>
>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Marc Riddell
>> <michaeldavid86@...> wrote:
>>> on 9/30/08 5:33 PM, Chris Howie at cdhowie@... wrote:
>>>> Not to mention that alcoholism is an addiction and not a disease.
>>>
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>> That is a false and a dangerous belief. Addiction describes the  
>>> behavior
>>> associated with the disease. In short: the emotions trigger the  
>>> first drink,
>>> and the brain takes it from there.
>>>
>>> Marc
>
> on 9/30/08 6:20 PM, Chris Howie at cdhowie@... wrote:
>
>>
>> As a theory I have no problem with the statement that alcoholism is a
>> disease, but I have seen little evidence to confirm it.  Our own
>> article uses language more like "suggests that" and "thinks."
>>
>> Obviously I don't intend to hijack this thread, but either I haven't
>> done much research on this subject or the research I have done hasn't
>> produced much useful data.  So Occam's Razor seems pretty  
>> appropriate.
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Nathan | 1 Oct 04:51 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

You guys really know how to run a thread off the rails.

Whether the article was accurate or not is important, but not the larger
point. Our biographies of living people, folks with families and careers,
can become the major reference on their lives - so our vigilance on these
articles is of extreme real world importance. This event is a very good
example of that principle.

Nathan
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WJhonson | 1 Oct 05:03 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career


In a message dated 9/30/2008 7:52:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
nawrich@... writes:

Our  biographies of living people, folks with families and careers,
can become  the major reference on their lives - so our vigilance on these
articles is  of extreme real world importance. This event is a very good
example of that  principle.>>

----------------------
Not following your point.
If there are reliable sources stating that "After an all-night drinking  
binge he paraded nude through St Mary's Convent startling the sisters at  Mass"

Then it should be in his article right?

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Philip Sandifer | 1 Oct 05:05 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career


On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:03 PM, WJhonson@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/30/2008 7:52:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> nawrich@... writes:
>
> Our  biographies of living people, folks with families and careers,
> can become  the major reference on their lives - so our vigilance on  
> these
> articles is  of extreme real world importance. This event is a very  
> good
> example of that  principle.>>
>
>
> ----------------------
> Not following your point.
> If there are reliable sources stating that "After an all-night  
> drinking
> binge he paraded nude through St Mary's Convent startling the  
> sisters at  Mass"
>
> Then it should be in his article right?

Is it relevant to his general notability and significance as a topic?

-Phil

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WJhonson | 1 Oct 05:08 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career


In a message dated 9/30/2008 8:06:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,  
snowspinner@... writes:

Is it  relevant to his general notability and significance as a  topic?

-------------------
If *each* statement in a bio has to be, then we should never state when a  
person was born or where, since those are not notable nor significant.  In  fact 
80 to 95 percent of what we have in bios now is not particularly notable or  
significant.  But it's standard to cite those.

I'd say that front-page scandals are notable and significant, no matter how  
old they are or who they address.

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Nathan | 1 Oct 05:10 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

If you're not understanding the point, I'll simplify it - BLPs are important
because of the impact they can have, as demonstrated by this guy and his
article and the effect it nearly had on his career.

To answer your question - probably not, no. If there is a two page article
about someone in the Times, and midway through page 2 it says that he
inherited his brown eyes from his father, that is an example of a fact found
in a reliable source that does not belong in the article. Salaciousness
isn't the standard for inclusion of a detail in an encyclopedic entry.

Nathan

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:03 PM, <WJhonson@...> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/30/2008 7:52:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> nawrich@... writes:
>
> Our  biographies of living people, folks with families and careers,
> can become  the major reference on their lives - so our vigilance on these
> articles is  of extreme real world importance. This event is a very good
> example of that  principle.>>
>
>
> ----------------------
> Not following your point.
> If there are reliable sources stating that "After an all-night drinking
> binge he paraded nude through St Mary's Convent startling the sisters at
>  Mass"
>
(Continue reading)

geni | 1 Oct 05:24 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

2008/10/1 Nathan <nawrich@...>:
> If you're not understanding the point, I'll simplify it - BLPs are important
> because of the impact they can have, as demonstrated by this guy and his
> article and the effect it nearly had on his career.

I suspect the article is being somewhat lighthearted. Yes the manager
may have started with wikipedia but they would be very unlikely to end
there. So when the managers first phone call about the guy's past
record turn up complete confusion they would probably pick up any
issues in the article.

Compared to the likely impact our article on the LHC had I doubt it
was that great.

--

-- 
geni

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WJhonson | 1 Oct 05:24 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

But Nathan, as you quite well know :)
Having brown eyes isn't particularly notable.

Driving your Jeep through the plate-glass front-window of Bergdorff's  is.

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Gordon Joly | 1 Oct 14:24 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

At 23:10 -0400 30/9/08, Nathan wrote:
>If you're not understanding the point, I'll simplify it - BLPs are important
>because of the impact they can have, as demonstrated by this guy and his
>article and the effect it nearly had on his career.

Yes, since it aggregated and hence aggravated the reports of his behaviour.

>To answer your question - probably not, no. If there is a two page article
>about someone in the Times, and midway through page 2 it says that he
>inherited his brown eyes from his father, that is an example of a fact found
>in a reliable source that does not belong in the article. Salaciousness
>isn't the standard for inclusion of a detail in an encyclopedic entry.
>
>Nathan

Indeed,

Gordo

--

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Joe Szilagyi | 1 Oct 15:34 2008
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Re: BLPs: Wikipedia entry nearly scuppers rugby player's career

On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:08 PM, <WJhonson@...> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/30/2008 8:06:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> snowspinner@... writes:
>
> Is it  relevant to his general notability and significance as a  topic?
>
>
> -------------------
> If *each* statement in a bio has to be, then we should never state when a
> person was born or where, since those are not notable nor significant.  In
>  fact
> 80 to 95 percent of what we have in bios now is not particularly notable or
> significant.  But it's standard to cite those.
>
> I'd say that front-page scandals are notable and significant, no matter how
> old they are or who they address.
>

I suspect the viewpoints you have for your own "warts and all" biographies
you do on your own website have no bearing on how we treat BLPs on
Wikipedia. Stop trying to import your own lax or harmful standards here.

- Joe
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Gmane