Ray Saintonge | 1 Apr 2008 02:26

Re: Widespread disagreement with Wikipedia:Verifiability

Ken Arromdee wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 WJhonson@... wrote:
>   
>> So whether or not a Wikipedian visited a covered bridge isn't useable in an  
>> article about that bridge.
>>  
>> This is because, we cannot verify a person's experiences.  We can  however 
>> verify a source fixed  in media.
>>     
> You are arguing that the rules should be followed.  My point is that the rules
> produce an undesirable result in this case.
When rules produce a result that is in conflict with fundamental reality 
checks we know that the application of the rules has gone too far.

Ec

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Chris Howie | 1 Apr 2008 02:41
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Re: new subscribers on probation for how long?

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Philip Sandifer
<snowspinner@...> wrote:
>  See. So now the task is completely worthless instead of just mostly
>  worthless.
>
>  That does explain why, whenever I go to look at the queue, it looks
>  like someone has just moderated, though.
>
>  -Phil

I'm sure there are plenty of coders around who would be willing to
give a shot at improving the interface.  Assuming this is mailman,
they'd just have to get the sources and start hacking, no?

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Steve Summit | 1 Apr 2008 04:02
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Re: Armenian Genocide

Thanks for reiterating those points, Wiley and Christiano.
Let me take one more stab at making mine.

(I'll rehash the disclaimers, just in case:  I do understand that
this genocide really did happen, and that the magnitudes of the
horror and the death toll were as described.  I am not trying to
apologize for the Turkish government, or condone its revisionism
and denial.  I do understand the Undue Weight clause of our NPOV
policy.)

I believe that the best way of dealing with a minority and wrong
viewpoint, and the way mandated by our NPOV policy, is to present
it simply and factually, more or less as its proponents would
wish (if they could ever limit themselves to simple, allegedly-
factual statements).  I believe, as WP:NPOV says, that the (true)
facts will speak for themselves.  I don't believe that the
minority view's statements need to be relentlessly challenged
and contradicted right in the very same sentences where they're
presented.  I don't believe that by presenting a contrary opinion
in this way (in a *non* forked article which also presents the
majority opinion duly forcefully) that we are condoning the
contrary opinion, or risking being seen as arguing in favor
of it in the eyes of any reader who's undecided.

There is, to be sure, the question of when a minority opinion
becomes so very fringe that it deserves no mention at all.  But
when the opinion is one which is (a) eminently sourceable and
(b) supported by a major government, I don't think we can sweep
it under the rug, no matter how wrong it or its sponsor is.
To try to is to invite (as Christiano observes) a depressingly
(Continue reading)

Stephen Bain | 1 Apr 2008 04:16
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Village pump

Well, the instructions do say that it's the place for proposals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28proposals%29&diff=202446989&oldid=202441423

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Majorly | 1 Apr 2008 04:21

Re: Village pump

On 01/04/2008, Stephen Bain <stephen.bain@...> wrote:
>
> Well, the instructions do say that it's the place for proposals:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28proposals%29&diff=202446989&oldid=202441423
>
> --
> Stephen Bain
> stephen.bain@...
>
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I hope she accepts! :)

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(Continue reading)

Ron Ritzman | 1 Apr 2008 04:24
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Re: Armenian Genocide

On 3/31/08, Wily D <wilydoppelganger@...> wrote:

>  this way.  Although one is normally loath to compare things to the
>  Holocaust, the comparison is apt - a genocide of similar proportions
>  (~1.5 million killed), very limited denial,

The Armenian Genocide reminds me more of the American [[Trail of
Tears]] then it does the Nazi Holocaust. Not in terms of the death
count but in the method.

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Kurt Maxwell Weber | 1 Apr 2008 05:32
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Re: Village pump

On Monday 31 March 2008 21:16, Stephen Bain wrote:
> Well, the instructions do say that it's the place for proposals:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28propo
>sals%29&diff=202446989&oldid=202441423

It's good to see people are having enough common sense not to go all apeshit 
over this.

I'm sure someone will, though. :(

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Alex G | 1 Apr 2008 06:00
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Re: Village pump

That's just hilarious.  But yeah, I'm with Kurt on this - expecting a "no,
she won't marry you" block message.

(That said, does anyone think that guy is likely to contribute
productively?)

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Kurt Maxwell Weber <kmw@...> wrote:

> On Monday 31 March 2008 21:16, Stephen Bain wrote:
> > Well, the instructions do say that it's the place for proposals:
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVillage_pump_%28propo
> >sals%29&diff=202446989&oldid=202441423
>
> It's good to see people are having enough common sense not to go all
> apeshit
> over this.
>
> I'm sure someone will, though. :(
>
> --
> Kurt Weber
> <kmw@...>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@...
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(Continue reading)

Philip Sandifer | 1 Apr 2008 06:24
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Re: Widespread disagreement with Wikipedia:Verifiability


On Mar 31, 2008, at 6:53 PM, The Mangoe wrote:

> Well, here goes the expert rebellion again. Consistently I've found
> editors rejecting any personal expertise in favor of anything that
> looks much like a traditional source.

Indeed. Our anti-expertise culture is getting to the point where  
"Expert knowledge is not required to edit" and "We really would like  
some sources" are being replaced with "You should edit articles on  
subjects you know nothing about and actively avoid writing in areas  
you are familiar with."

-Phil

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Philip Sandifer | 1 Apr 2008 06:26
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Re: Village pump


On Apr 1, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Alex G wrote:

> That's just hilarious.  But yeah, I'm with Kurt on this - expecting  
> a "no,
> she won't marry you" block message.
>
> (That said, does anyone think that guy is likely to contribute
> productively?)

It appears he is mostly a reader, with the bulk of his contributions  
being questions at the Reference Desk.

-Phil

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Gmane