Jim Torson | 1 Oct 2006 17:44

[Global Change: 772] Nuclear Power is Not the Answer


This book is now available:

http://www.helencaldicott.com/books.htm#newbook

NUCLEAR POWER IS NOT THE ANSWER

Publisher: The New Press (2006); ISBN: 978-1-59558-067-2
Scribe Publications (2002); ISBN:0908011652
Melbourne University Press: ISBN 0522 85251 3

In a world torn apart by wars over oil, many 
politicians are increasingly looking for 
alternative sources of energy - and their leading 
choice is often nuclear. Among the myths that 
have been spread over the years about 
nuclear-powered electricity are that it does not 
cause global warming or pollution (i.e., that it 
is "clean and green"), that it is inexpensive, 
and that it is safe. But the facts belie the 
barrage of nuclear industry propaganda:
    * Nuclear power contributes to global warming
    * The real costs of nuclear power are 
prohibitive (and taxpayers pick up most of them)
    * There’s not enough uranium in the world to 
sustain long-term nuclear power
    * Potential for a catastrophic accident or 
terrorist attack far outweighs any benefits.

Trained as a physician, and - after four decades 
(Continue reading)

Michael Tobis | 1 Oct 2006 18:03
Picon

[Global Change: 773] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer

> carbon emitted in the creation of nuclear power (higher
> than fossil fuels if the entire process from
> uranium mining to waste disposal is included)

While all the assertions seem questionable, this particular claim has always kicked off my BS meter.

Even if one assumes that the entire mining and disposal process is necessarily fueled by fossil fuels (which is obviously unfair) it's hard to believe this is possible. It's specifically the huge net energy return on nuclear fuel that makes it attractive. However, the claim that nuclear power is dirtier than fossil fuels as regards carbon emissions requires that the net energy return on nuclear fuels is negative.

If the carbon released in the recovery and disposal process were greater than the carbon released in generating an equivalent amount of power from fossil fuel, then it would seem that (since the actual energy-production process is carbon neutral) the energy required to recover and dispose of the nuclear fuel would be greater than the energy released by the nuclear fission process.

It seems to me that this would imply you would have a much stronger argument than the ones you present, i.e., that there is no energy gain in fission; i.e., in practice, no such thing as nuclear power.

Am I missing something? Because if I'm not, you have not gone very far in convincing me that your position is based on sound arguments.

mt


On 10/1/06, Jim Torson <jtorson <at> commspeed.net> wrote:

This book is now available:

http://www.helencaldicott.com/books.htm#newbook

NUCLEAR POWER IS NOT THE ANSWER

Publisher: The New Press (2006); ISBN: 978-1-59558-067-2
Scribe Publications (2002); ISBN:0908011652
Melbourne University Press: ISBN 0522 85251 3

In a world torn apart by wars over oil, many
politicians are increasingly looking for
alternative sources of energy - and their leading
choice is often nuclear. Among the myths that
have been spread over the years about
nuclear-powered electricity are that it does not
cause global warming or pollution (i.e., that it
is "clean and green"), that it is inexpensive,
and that it is safe. But the facts belie the
barrage of nuclear industry propaganda:
    * Nuclear power contributes to global warming
    * The real costs of nuclear power are
prohibitive (and taxpayers pick up most of them)
    * There's not enough uranium in the world to
sustain long-term nuclear power
    * Potential for a catastrophic accident or
terrorist attack far outweighs any benefits.

Trained as a physician, and - after four decades
of antinuclear activism - thoroughly versed in
the science of nuclear energy, the bestselling
author of Nuclear Madness and Missile Envy here
turns her attention from nuclear bombs to nuclear
lightbulbs. As she makes meticulously clear in
this damning book, the world cannot withstand either.

The edition published by Melbourne University
Press contains a special preface for Australian readers.

-----------------

http://reviews.publishersweekly.com/bd.aspx?isbn=1595580670&pub=pw

Caldecott's latest antinuke book searingly
debunks the claim that the impending "nuclear
power renaissance," purported by some to be the
only answer to global warming, is "clean and
green." She covers all the bases, from the carbon
emitted in the creation of nuclear power (higher
than fossil fuels if the entire process from
uranium mining to waste disposal is included) to
the cost of nuclear plants (too high to be viable
without large government subsidies) and the
health risks and possibility of accidents and
terrorists' access (more than we'd like to
think). She also points out that, despite
proponents' assurances, we still haven't found a
safe place to store the waste materials for the
necessary thousands of years, and that
state-of-the-art nuclear plant technology is
still full of unresolved problems. Caldecott's
predictable alternative is also sensible: switch
to wind and other benign renewables, turn down
the thermostat, wear a sweater, use energy
efficient lights and dry clothes on the
clothesline. Detractors will complain that she is
strident and incendiary, but those who believe
that facts matter will want to read her
frighteningly convincing argument.(Sept.)

Copyright © 1997-2005 Reed Business Information,
a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

----------

Available from Barnes & Noble:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1595580670&itm=8






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Eric Swanson | 2 Oct 2006 01:50
Favicon

[Global Change: 774] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer


Michael Tobis wrote:
> > carbon emitted in the creation of nuclear power (higher
> > than fossil fuels if the entire process from
> > uranium mining to waste disposal is included)

There have been numerous attempts to quantify the energy required to
"run" the nuclear energy system.  The usual form is called net energy
analysis.  I haven't followed these questions closely since first
learning about EROEI in the 1970's and one must be aware of the
assumptions used to perform any analysis.

If you really want to get into it, google on this:

     "net energy analysis" electricity "nuclear power"

Some early studies suggested that a nuclear plant didn't produce any
net energy for the first few years of operation.  If the rate of plant
construction is quick enough, the newer construction takes all the net
energy from the older plants, so there is never any net energy produced
until several years after the last batch is finished.

The larger field of study lead to the formation of the International
Society for Ecological Economics (ISEE) back in the 1980's.  I joined
for a few years until my funds became too limited.

     http://www.ecoeco.org/index.html

Jim Torson | 3 Oct 2006 15:51

[Global Change: 775] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer


At 09:03 AM 10/1/2006, Michael Tobis wrote:
> > carbon emitted in the creation of nuclear power (higher
> > than fossil fuels if the entire process from
> > uranium mining to waste disposal is included)
>
>While all the assertions seem questionable, this particular claim 
>has always kicked off my BS meter.

I haven't looked closely at this aspect of nuclear power.  (I think
economic considerations are enough to reject nuclear.)
However, I have ordered a copy of the book to see what it says.

Are you willing to spend a few bucks to obtain the book to
see what it actually says?  Or, are you content to assume
that you already know everything about the subject you need
to know?

Jim

crandles | 3 Oct 2006 16:32
Favicon

[Global Change: 776] Ioke Records


Coby Beck asked (on an Ioke thread which is closed)

Ioke strengthened into a Category 5 storm, the first storm with a name
from the Central Pacific list to reach that intensity."

Seems like another "first".  Is it significant?

also

re longevity as a category 4+

Perhaps a very interesting record in the works.  Might this also make
it a
record setter for energy dissipation?

It seems that Ioke has taken the record for longevity as a category 4
or higher not only for a central Pacific hurricane but also worldwide.
It lasted for a time period that should be 33 consecutive 6 hourly
report. Previous record for the basin was 1997 Typhoon Paka 25
consecutive reports and worldwide was 2004 Ivan with 32 consecutive 6
hourly reports.

I don't think it was a energy dissipation record maker. I calculate
around 102 * 10^6 Kt^3 for Ioke. 1961's Super Typhoon 18 managed 119.1
*10^6 Kt^3.

Personally I doubt it is significant on its own. If it had beaten all
of the above records and the records beaten had all been recently set
then maybe it would be significant but if it fails to beat a 1961
record then I have difficulty believing it is significant unless you
combine it with a lot of other data. Of course others may know better
than me about whether it is significant.

Michael Tobis | 3 Oct 2006 16:46
Picon

[Global Change: 777] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer

I am willing to reconsider my tentative pro-nuclear stance, but I am not happy with the quality of the anti-nuclear arguments I have seen.

In the present case, there is a book that is making an extraordinary claim, that nuclear energy releases MORE carbon than fossil fuels. I reach the conclusion that this claim is equivalent to the claim that the energy gain on nuclear power must be less than 1, i.e., that net nuclear power is as impossible as getting power from a perpetual motion machine.

Since the book doesn't make THAT claim, which would be quite enough to settle the case, one of two possibilities remains:

1) my conclusion is invalid
2) the book is nonsense

If you want to convince me to read the book you will have to defend position 1. Otherwise, no, I am not willing to spend the time, never mind the money, on the book.

There is too much nonsense out there for me or anyone to read all of it. Indeed I'd like to avoid any of it except for purposes of entertainment, and I'm confident this book won't be all that entertaining.

mt

On 10/3/06, Jim Torson <jtorson <at> commspeed.net> wrote:

At 09:03 AM 10/1/2006, Michael Tobis wrote:
> > carbon emitted in the creation of nuclear power (higher
> > than fossil fuels if the entire process from
> > uranium mining to waste disposal is included)
>
>While all the assertions seem questionable, this particular claim
>has always kicked off my BS meter.

I haven't looked closely at this aspect of nuclear power.  (I think
economic considerations are enough to reject nuclear.)
However, I have ordered a copy of the book to see what it says.

Are you willing to spend a few bucks to obtain the book to
see what it actually says?  Or, are you content to assume
that you already know everything about the subject you need
to know?

Jim






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Alastair McDonald | 3 Oct 2006 17:35
Picon
Picon

[Global Change: 778] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer

Michael,
 
I suspect that if you take the cost of refining the fuel, and building the reactor and turbines then the cost of nuclear power is much higher than fossil fuel generation, but obviously that does not mean that there is no net power output.   However, if you add in the cost of decommissioning the power station when its life is over, then the cost of generation escalates enormously.  If this cost is high enough then there has been no net gain generating power using uranium. Of course this extra cost is borne mainly by our descendents, not us.  I have also heard it claimed that the reason that the decommissioning costs are so high is because the original power stations were producing nuclear armaments, and the cost of decommission those is being added to the costs of nuclear generation. But it is conceivable that the energy needed to dispose of the nuclear stations is greater than that which they generated.  One would like to think that they could be buried cheaply in concrete and forgotten about, but what if they later exploded?
 
You could argue that the damage done to the environment by AGW is a cost that should be added to the conventional power stations in the same way as the disposal of nuclear waste is added to nuclear power stations, but two wrongs do not make a right.  
 
However, as I see it, the real problem is that the public won't accept new nuclear power stations.  You and James Lovelock may be willing to have a waste dump in your back yard, but I doubt your neighbours will agree.  Moreover we need more than two people willing to have nuclear waste dumps if we are going to replace all fossil fuel generation with nuclear.
 
Cheers, Alastair.
 

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Kooiti MASUDA | 4 Oct 2006 10:44
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Favicon

[Global Change: 779] Re: Nuclear Power is Not the Answer


I have not read that book, but I think "Nuclear power is not the
answer" myself.

I think that discussing CO2 emission is not a good way to evaluate
nuclear power. More generally, we should not evaluate enviromental harm
of human activity with CO2 emission alone.

I think that advertisements by some nuclear lobbyists that nuclear
power does not emit CO2 is as wrong as denial of CO2-global-warming by
some fossil fuel lobbyists.  Fossil fuel is used for mining and
trasportation at least, and also for refinery and waste management
probably.

But it is very uncertain whether those energy demands are met by
electricity produced by nuclear power plants in the future.  And the
question is about the long-term effects.  Thus the answer to the
question of CO2 emission of the whole stream of nuclear power
generation is inherently uncertain.  It may be a good academic problem,
but a bad basis for policy making.

On the other hand, evaluation of costs in monetary terms is fragile,
too. Its uncertainty is large due to how to take account of
inhomogeneous inflation, and to the notorious discount rate.

Since a nuclear power plant is essentially a heat engine, the best
basis of evaluation would be thermodynamics.  This is my opinion which
has been influenced by several Japanese physicists, material engineers
and economists who discussed at "The Society for Studies of Entropy".as
well as elsewhere. (Incidentally, one of the founders of this thought
recently advocates strong denial of CO2-global-warming and I think that
is flawed, Other members do not agree with this advocacy. This issue
does not affect their common criticism on nuclear power.)

I do not think that anyone has yet done comprehensive analysis of
entropy balance in the stream of nuclear power generation.  But the
idea can be reflected in several points.

First, nuclear reaction makes higher temperature than the ambient air
or water, and the energy flow through the difference of temperature
makes a heat engine work. But, strong level of radiation makes choice
of materials for the reactor body and for the working fluid very
limited. Usually water is used as the working fluid, and thus the
high-end temperature of heat engine is limited around 300 deg. Celcius,
much lower than around 1000 deg. C achievable in gas turbines.
(Experimentally, liquid metal natrium (sodium) is used as the working
fluid, but it is well known that natrium reacts with water very
strongly. I doubt that complete insulation could be kept
operationally.)  The smaller difference of temperature makes the
efficiency of the heat engine much less than the case of engines heated
by combustion. And the problem of waste heat is larger (though
sometimes production of warm water is welcomed).

Second, concentration of uranium, and uranium 235 in particular, is not
very high in the ore.  Many processes are needed to make the
concentration sufficient for the power plant (but unsuitable for
bombs).  Most of the processes are against the natural tendency of
diffusion and thus require low-entropy resources.  Also, huge mass of
wastes is left at mines and at the refinery. Most of them are
radioactive though probably of low level. We need some resources to
make sure that they do not harm people in the place and the
environment. (Maybe the task is forgotten and we are making harm to the
people around uranium mines.)

Third, the used fuel is mixure of almost all possible elements and
isotopes, and many of them are radioactive. Some of them have strong
radioactivity, and some of them have long life.  If we separate them,
handling of each element may be easier.  But to separate is to decrease
entropy that requires low-entropy resources.  Also the process must be
done under high radiation. Some elements are in gas phase in the
ambient temperature and it is almost impossible to prevent escape of
those elements to the environment.  There is choice not to separate.
Then, we need to maintain large mass of wastes (though smaller than
wastes at mines) whose radioactivity is both very high initially and
long-lasting, for thousands of years.

Thus I think that thermodynamic cost (requirement of low-entropy
resources)  of the nuclear energy stream is high.  I am not sure
whether or not the cost overwhelms the low-entropy energy that the heat
engine produces. But I think it is enough to discourage development of
nuclear power as a way of mitigation of enviromnental degradation.

There are also problems related to justice and liberty in human
society, but I postpone that discussion to the next occasion.

Ko-1 M.

Michael Tobis | 4 Oct 2006 23:33
Picon

[Global Change: 780] Call for Papers: The Politics of Climate Change Research at AAG

OK, this is short notice to actually participate, but it is interesting to contemplate.

From the American Association of Geographers, reported here:

http://www.agrometeorology.org/index.php?id=68&backPID=68&tt_news=465

mt



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David Roberts | 5 Oct 2006 04:32

[Global Change: 782] google groups update


This is off topic, but since we're on Google Groups, and some people
are accessing it via the web, I thought some of you might be interested
to check out the new look Google's rolling out soon.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/globalchange

Quite a bit slicker.

Now, back to gloom and (some not-yet-precisely-agreed-upon level of)
doom.


Gmane