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Derek Boles | 1 Dec 2005 02:24
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Re: Toronto Union Station Planning

>Message: 4        
>    Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:29:40 -0500
>    From: "Pat Scrimgeour" <pjs@...>
>Subject: RE: Re: Toronto Union Station Planning
>
>
>Even before VIA opened TMC, and since Union Station opened, many trains ran
>through the station, as CN trains to and from the east were serviced at
>Spadina, to the west, and CPR trains to and from the west were serviced at
>John Street, to the south but connected to the east.  It is only in the last
>38 years (just under half the life of the station) that there have been many
>trains which carry passengers through the station.

I'm aware of the servicing facilities around TUS and it was the 
movement of passengers through the station on a train that I was 
referring to. Maybe some operating rules enthusiasts can clarify this 
but does it not cease to be a "train" once it arrives at its 
destination, discharges its passengers and commences moving to the 
servicing facilities?

>
>>  It is only in the last
>>38 years (just under half the life of the station) that there have been many
>trains which carry passengers through the station.

I guess that depends on what you mean by many. I have a 1931 CN 
timetable showing six eastbound and six westbound trains passing 
through the station and retaining the same numbers. My 1930 CP 
timetable shows four in each direction. That's 20 trains a day 
passing through Union Station. Admittedly that had dwindled
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Lyman Holmes | 1 Dec 2005 03:02
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Re: Atlantic cancellation

--- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@..., Tom Box <tbox <at> g...> 
wrote:
>
 And this was perfectly in keeping with the general
> thrust of Liberal transport policy at this time, which was
> to reduce government involvement and adopt a more laissez-
> faire approach.  The government was working toward privatizing
> CN, turning airports over to local authorities, making the rail
> line abandonment process less onerous, cutting subsidies to VIA,
> etc.  Doing nothing about the Atlantic was perfectly in keeping
> with this.  I see no evidence that the inaction on the Atlantic
> was some exceptional measure.

I believe if the CN line via Campbellton had been threatened in 1993-
94, the Liberal government would have taken quick action to prevent 
the demise of the Ocean.  The evidence is that they subsequently did 
take the action which prevented the demise of the Ocean when CN 
decided to vacate a couple of years later.

  I think you're vastly
> overestimating the importance of trains to most people,
> including Mr. Young.  The residents of Doug Young's riding
> were vitally interested in the changes to unemployment
> insurance.  The great majority of them didn't care much,
> if at all, about the frequency of the Ocean.  I wasn't a
> resident of Mr. Young's riding, but I was living in New
> Brunswick and following the local media at the time these
> events took place.  I didn't see any reports of dancing in
> the streets of Bathurst when the Ocean's frequency was
> increased.
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Paul Cordingley VA3MLW | 1 Dec 2005 03:33
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Tidbits on the death of a train (Was TUS Planning)

Derek Boles wrote -

> referring to. Maybe some operating rules enthusiasts can clarify this
> but does it not cease to be a "train" once it arrives at its
> destination, discharges its passengers and commences moving to the
> servicing facilities?

Traditionally a train was defined in the rules as "a movement displaying
symbols and markers". The symbols were the flags on the locomotive (if any)
designating extra movement (white) or extra section following (green) and
the markers were the lanterns hung on the rear. When a train arrived at its
destination, the removal of the marker lamps from the tail end was the
moment at which it officially ceased to be a train. After that it was just
"equipment", ie a string of cars.

At TUS, markers were removed in the depot on arrival. So the trip from TUS
to the coach yard was post-mortem. The TTR was effectively a yard, and
within yard limits an engine moving cars without markers was not considered
a train.

I rode the cab into TUS many times in the 68-72 era. Normal practice was for
the head end to cut off and head for the diesel shop. For any practical
purpose the train ceased to be a train at this point. The conductor and
trainmen booked off in the depot, I don't recall if they removed the markers
before they went downstairs or if the carmen did it after cutting off the
power.

The last through-Toronto train that I recall pre-VIA was I believe in the
winter of 70-71 when there was a Montreal-Windsor service on CN.
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Mark W. Walton | 1 Dec 2005 05:48
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Re: Re: Atlantic cancellation

Remember, trains didn't make Doug Young's heart go "pitty-pat" - social 
programs did.

Mark Walton
mark.walton@...

---- Original Message ----
From: Lyman Holmes
To: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: [CanPassRail] Re: Atlantic cancellation

> --- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@..., "Tom Box"
> <tbox <at> g...>
> wrote:
>>
>> "Lyman Holmes" <llholmes1948 <at> y...> wrote:
>>> Tom Box <tbox <at> g...> wrote:
>
> I don't think the fact that the Transport Minister, Doug Young,
> could see train service in his riding doubled by taking no action on 
> the
> Atlantic should be underestimated as part of this process.  At least
> I was impressed by this fact. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Pat Scrimgeour | 1 Dec 2005 07:28
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Pat Scrimgeour <pjs@...>

RE: Atlantic cancellation (was Re: Transport (and other) Ministers)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Canadian-Passenger-Rail@... 
> [mailto:Canadian-Passenger-Rail@...] On Behalf Of 
> Lyman Holmes

>   I assume that NBEC and 
> other short line employees on Via routes are represented by 
> unions so it is not a union/non-union issue.  It is either a 
> lesser union or they get less pay.

Some of the short line railways have representation for the workers, and
some do not.  Some workers organised several years after the formation of
the companies -- GEXR, for instance.

As I understand it, whether the workers were represented by a union or not
is not the main point of the change from federal to provincial labour law.
The main point was that most provinces did not have successor rights in
their law, but the federal law did.  To oversimplify, under most provincial
laws, the collective agreement that was in place at a business ceased to be
in effect when the business changed hands.  (The sale of Dominion Stores to
A&P comes to mind.)  So, even if they were organised as a union, the workers
were in a weak bargaining position with the new owner, as it was really a
first-contract negotiation.  The result was that many former better-paid
workers on the line went to work on other lines still operated by the
national railways, bumping people junior to them out of work.  The new
company on the short line would then hire lower-paid workers, such as
retirees supplementing their pensions, locals who decided to stay at home
and lump the wage cut, or new hires.

There is not a national wage scale for unionised railway workers that
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tbox | 1 Dec 2005 13:56

IOC and First Nations Group Conclude an Historic Agreement for Transfer of Passenger Rail Services i...

Here's a press release about the transfer of passenger service to Schefferville to an Innu/Naskapi group.

Iron Ore Company of Canada (IOC)

INDUSTRY:Mining - Precious Metals

Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc.
NOVEMBER 30, 2005 - 12:30 ET

IOC and First Nations Group Conclude an Historic Agreement for Transfer of Passenger Rail Services in
Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador

SEPT-ILES, QUEBEC--(CCNMatthews - Nov. 30, 2005) - 

A First In Canadian History: Aboriginal Ownership Of Railway Line

For the first time in Canadian history, a Canadian railway line will be owned and operated by a First Nations group.

The president and CEO of the Iron Ore Company of Canada (IOC), Mr. Terrence Bowles and the president of
Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc., Mr. Elie-Jacques Jourdain today announced that IOC has
transferred its passenger rail service between Schefferville and Sept-Iles QC to Tshiuetin Rail
Transportation Inc.  As part of this transaction, the northern portion of IOC's Quebec North Shore and
Labrador (QNS&L) railway line, running between Schefferville and Emeril Junction NL, will also be
transferred to Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc.   Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc.'s inaugural
passenger train is scheduled to depart Sept-Iles en route for Schefferville on Thursday December 1, 2005
at 9 a.m.   Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc. of Sept-Iles, QC is owned jointly by the Nation Innu
Matimekush/Lac-John, the Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach and Innu Takuaikan Uashat mak Mani-Utenam.

"This historic agreement will allow IOC to now concentrate on its core business as a means of best serving
the interests of its shareholders, customers and employees, " stated Mr. Bowles, President and CEO of
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Tom Box | 1 Dec 2005 14:22

QNS&L passenger service (was Re: IOC and First Nations Group...)

Tom Box quoted:
> 
> Here's a press release about the transfer of passenger service
> to Schefferville to an Innu/Naskapi group.
> [...]
> IOC has transferred its passenger rail service between
> Schefferville and Sept-Iles QC to Tshiuetin Rail Transportation
> Inc. 
> [...]
> "This historic agreement will allow IOC to now concentrate on
> its core business [...]"
>  
> Tshiuetin Rail Transportation Inc. has acquired QNS&L's
> 134 mile (217 kilometre) long Menihek subdivision, running
> from Emeril Junction to Schefferville, through an asset
> purchase agreement. Tshiuetin will also assume ownership of
> passenger rail services between Schefferville and Sept-Iles.

I don't see any mention in this release about passenger
service to Labrador City.  Does anybody know if it will
continue, and if so, who will run it?  If it's to be run
by the QNS&L, will that railway's passenger fleet be divided
up between it and Tshiuetin?

Tom Box  <tbox@...> or <cz610@...>
Toronto, ON, Canada

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Robert Lubinski | 1 Dec 2005 14:51
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VIA #1 Consist, December 1, 2005

VIA #1 as observed at Union St at 0800 EST this
morning.

6433
6434 still with tired SM wrap
8609
8101
Skyline 8501
Empress
Douglas Manor
Franklin Manor
Brock Manor
Kokanee Park

Power = 2
Cars = 8

Robert Lubinski,
Toronto, ON

	

	
		
__________________________________________________________ 
Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca

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Canadian | 1 Dec 2005 14:54
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File - CanPassRail_Info.txt


CANADIAN-PASSENGER-RAIL GROUP INFORMATION:

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future passenger trains and rail travel in Canada. This includes all national, regional, commuter, and
tourist rail carriers such as VIA Rail, the current and former passenger operations of CN and CP, Ontario
Northland, BC Rail, GO Transit, West Coast Express, and Rocky Mountaineer Railtours. Others not
mentioned here are of course welcome, so long as they are located in Canada.  The general rule is, "if it runs
on rails in Canada while carrying passengers, then it's 'on-topic.'"
    Although Montreal Commuter Lines do fall within the scope of Canadian-Passenger-Rail, a greater
knowledge-base on this topic exists on the Montrain List.  To find out about them, and other Canadian
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    Discussions regarding freight movements unrelated to passenger rail should be posted elsewhere. We
suggest the Canadian-Rails, C-P-R, or C-N-R lists for these topics. You can also find information on
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Messages:
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    Posts from new members will be moderated as well as those from individuals whom the moderators feel should
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Lyman Holmes | 1 Dec 2005 15:22
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Re: Atlantic cancellation

--- In Canadian-Passenger-Rail@..., "Mark W. Walton" 
<mark.walton <at> s...> wrote:
>
> Remember, trains didn't make Doug Young's heart go "pitty-pat" - 
social 
> programs did.
> 
I don't doubt that for a minute.  I don't think Doug Young had any 
interest in Via.  But are you saying that if CN had been applying to 
abandon service on the ICR route in 1993-94 he would have made no 
effort to see that the laws were in place to allow the continued 
operation of the Ocean?  I guess that is where Tom Box and I disagree.

There are a lot of politicians who take positions on topics that are 
of little interest to them personally but they recognize that those 
topics are of interest to constituents.  Via was clearly not a make 
or break issue but I assume it was of some interest and loss of the 
service could have had some negative consequences especially among 
elderly voters.

Lyman Holmes

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