Adrian Stott | 1 Aug 2012 09:05
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Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:14 +0100, Trevor
<listsandstuff@...> wrote:

>Whilst the 'rate' might fall, the hole in his budget grows with each 
>extra mile (and he would have to do a lot of additional miles to shift 
>the rate downwards by any meaningful amount) 

In fact, he had been so influenced by his misunderstanding of marginal
cost that he was driving very little.  He could easily have doubled
the distance he drove per period, thus substantially reducing his
average cost / km.

Adrian

Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

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Trevor | 1 Aug 2012 14:16
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Re: Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust


On 01/08/2012 08:05, Adrian Stott wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:58:14 +0100, Trevor
> <listsandstuff@...> wrote:
>
>> Whilst the 'rate' might fall, the hole in his budget grows with each
>> extra mile (and he would have to do a lot of additional miles to shift
>> the rate downwards by any meaningful amount)
> In fact, he had been so influenced by his misunderstanding of marginal
> cost that he was driving very little.  He could easily have doubled
> the distance he drove per period, thus substantially reducing his
> average cost / km.
An interesting comment - but you have (once again) totally missed - or 
ignored - my point :-/

Assuming, mainly from your earlier comments, that your gentleman 
acquaintance has a limited budget for transport of (for example) £100 
pcm, and that his 'fixed costs' have now risen to that same £100 pcm, 
then doing even 20 miles would mean that he can purchase one less loaf 
of bread each month for his family.

Doing double his usual distance - perhaps to half the private car's 
average of 8000 miles per year, would cost him an extra £27.50 pcm (or 
around 18 loaves of bread pcm).

Now, whilst you might happily celebrate the fact that his actions had 
proved, very conclusively, that his overall cost per mile** had been 
substantially reduced, my own sympathies lay closer to the brave 
gentleman who had to cut his partner's shopping budget by £25.75 pcm, 
whose eight children are now forced to go to bed without their bread and 
(Continue reading)

Andrew J Instone-Cowie | 2 Aug 2012 00:05
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Navigability - Ridgacre Branch, Wednesbury Oak Loop (Bradley Arm)? (XP)

Does anyone have any recent-ish info on the current navigability (or 
otherwise) of the Ridgacre Branch and of the Bradley Arm? 44ft narrow boat.

Thanks
Andrew

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Adrian Stott | 2 Aug 2012 09:56
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Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust

On Wed, 01 Aug 2012 13:16:14 +0100, Trevor
<listsandstuff@...> wrote:

>As a final point, should your example possess a travel card, or pass, 
>then perhaps he is less of an uneducated fool than might immediately 
>appear to outsiders?

In fact he could afford more travel than his minimal amount by car (a
few hundred km/year), and actually did travel quite a lot more but by
other means.  His reluctance to use his car more was due to his
incorrect perception of the cost of doing so (confusion between
average and marginal cost/km).  

My point with this example was to provide a comparison with the
suggested perception by the public that grants to the waterways are
subsidies to boaters, which I maintain they aren't provided the
boaters are paying navigation charges at a level representing the
point of diminishing returns. 

Adrian

Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

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Adrian Stott | 3 Aug 2012 15:03
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Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust

On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 12:05:23 +0100,
editor@... wrote:

>it has generally been concerned more with the increased local spend by boaters using the restored
waterway rather than increased property values

That depends on who is doing the assessment, I believe.  If you are a
person elected by the riparian owners, I suspect you may find an
increase in the value of their property is a very persuasive benefit.

>  - and there has subsequently been a certain amount of doubt cast upon it in the case of those restorations
such as the HNC where fewer boats are using the restored canal than had been expected. 

Something to do with not keeping the water levels up, perhaps?

> Perhaps pricing boaters off the canals isn't the best way to maximise these benefits....

Methinks that the a high proportion of the priced off are likely to be
people who navigate their boats little, if at all, who therefore are
providing very few benefits to, e.g., the area the HNC passes through.

>> The answer I suggest is "we have maximised the revenue from boaters,
>> so they are now paying appropriately, but that isn't enough to fund
>> the waterways so the taxpayer etc. must make up the difference".  
>
>...which is what I meant by my above comment, which you snipped.

Glad to see we agree, then!

>> >Some might take the view that an extra (say) five million pounds from (say) a total of three quarters of
(Continue reading)

editor | 3 Aug 2012 16:13
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Re: Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust

subscription@... wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2012 12:05:23 +0100,
> editor@... wrote:
> >it has generally been concerned more with the increased local spend by boaters using the restored
waterway rather than increased property values
> That depends on who is doing the assessment, I believe.  If you are a
> person elected by the riparian owners, I suspect you may find an
> increase in the value of their property is a very persuasive benefit.

That's not been my experience. Increased value of waterside property have been used (not very
successfully to date) to try to persuade property developers to contribute to restoration / new waterway
schemes. Attempts to garner support from local authorities (rather more successful to date) have, as I
said above, concentrated more on the idea of boaters bringing more cash into the area. And where it has been
put in doubt by reduced estimates of usage (for example the boat number limits proposed for the
Montgomery) it has made the authorities less supportive of the scheme.

That's been my experience from following canal restoration progress, not from an 'I believe' and an 'I
suspect' perspective.

> >  - and there has subsequently been a certain amount of doubt cast upon it in the case of those restorations
such as the HNC where fewer boats are using the restored canal than had been expected. 
> Something to do with not keeping the water levels up, perhaps?

It doesn't really matter what the reason is in any particular example - the general principle, which at
least some local authorities appear to believe, is that fewer boats mean less benefit to their area.

> > Perhaps pricing boaters off the canals isn't the best way to maximise these benefits....
> Methinks that the a high proportion of the priced off are likely to be
> people who navigate their boats little, if at all, who therefore are
> providing very few benefits to, e.g., the area the HNC passes through.
(Continue reading)

derek | 3 Aug 2012 18:31
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Re: Navigability - Calder and Hebble

Martin C  - anyone?

Is the Calder and Hebble still in flood? Or has it calmed down again so as to be navigable?
(won't be there till Sept 27th but getting antsy!)
Also, I see the New Islington Marina is opened for business. Has anyone used it and can comment? I saw a post
somewhere else complaining of vandalism. Wondered if I might still be better off going a little bit out of
my way to Telford Basin.
thanks
Derek Gribble

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Martin Clark | 3 Aug 2012 18:50
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Re: Re: Navigability - Calder and Hebble

On 03/08/2012 17:31, derek-g@... wrote:
> Martin C - anyone?
>
> Is the Calder and Hebble still in flood? Or has it calmed down again so
> as to be navigable?
> (won't be there till Sept 27th but getting antsy!)
> Also, I see the New Islington Marina is opened for business. Has anyone
> used it and can comment? I saw a post somewhere else complaining of
> vandalism. Wondered if I might still be better off going a little bit
> out of my way to Telford Basin.

The Calder and Hebble is not in flood at the moment, but it's no use 
asking now, as it changes quickly. Better to wait until you are near.

The New Islington Marina has had some problems at the start of the 
school holiday with bored kids swimming and interfering with boats. The 
residents in the marina say they are safe enough but the visitor 
moorings are apparently easily accessible. Things will probably be fine 
by the end of September but I would still recommend Telford Basin. Even 
Ducie Street is safe enough.
--

-- 
Martin Clark

Pennine Waterways Website    http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk

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charjohn | 3 Aug 2012 19:09
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Re: Navigability - Ridgacre Branch, Wednesbury Oak Loop (Bradley Arm)? (

Andrew

Recommend avoiding Ridgeacre arm.  On our last attempt (last year) we passed the first winding hole (as
marked in Nicholson) - no possibility of winding, jammed up with weeds / reeds.

Got a hundred metres or so further - could get no further, same problem as winding hole.

Backed out.  This is never going to be dredged - the toxic waste problem would be a nightmare.  Looks like major
mercury problem, at the very least.

Backing out through the initial bridge.  Took an hour and a half to go over a reef of traffic cones, that I had
obviously slid over on the way in - lobster pot effect.

No problem going up to Bradely Workshops - end of Wednesbury arm.  

A little shallow in places (we are 31 to 32 inches deep).  A slightly awkward turn at the end, because the entry
to the BW (sorry C&RT) workshops is designed to come in from the now closed direction.  We could do it - a bit
tight - at 60' - at 44 feet you will have no problem.  At 70', you would need to pass the entrance, and back in,
wind in the basin and then back out.

Nicholson says that the basin is locked out of working hours.  When we were there, the boom chain was broken. 
If you are staying, courtesy suggests that you speak to the guys in the workshop before hand.

A good option (certainly the one that we took) was to come up for one of the yard open days - then you can see how
lock gates are made.  Also of interest are the "loops" inside the (now disused) dry docks.  These were used to
invert boats to work on the bottoms.

Go for it - or at any rate the Wednesbury - not so labeled, but it was the old main line I believe.

Charley
(Continue reading)

Adrian Stott | 4 Aug 2012 10:01
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Re: Time to become a CRT'er? support Canal & River Trust

On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 15:13:42 +0100,
editor@... wrote:

>I don't know, and I'm not going to support pricing some of them off on the basis of a 'methinks' from you.

>Again, it's 'if', 'surely' and 'I doubt'. Come on, let's have some evidence. 

A good idea.  Now, let's see, who might assemble that?  

Someone who participates in waterway discussions for a few minutes
each day based on his observations?  Hmm, perhaps not, as he may have
neither the time nor the resources.  

What about someone whose job involves waterways, including
investigation, reporting, and analysis?  Ah, that sounds better
doesn't it?

Adrian

Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

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Gmane