To debate the role and legacy of the Soviet Union. Keywords: stalin, mao, trotsky.

Marcell Rodden | 8 Nov 2011 18:22

Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058573/Russia-marks-anniversary-1941-military-parade-tanks-troops-march-Red-Square.html

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darryl mitchell | 8 Nov 2011 21:31

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

I found this submission 100% capitalist ideology. There was no Marxist narrative of Russia today under the leadership of custodians of private property.

The name of this list is Soviet Legacy rather than “Stalin Legacy.”

Stalin is the bone in the throat of the communist movement that can neither be swallowed nor coughed up. Soviet Legacy as a concept is larger than Stalin. Soviet Legacy needs renewal as the Occupy Movement changes the political discussion in America. Soviet Legacy Part is a country without capitalist corporations. It is a legacy of a system of higher education that does not reduced young educated people to indentured servants. This legacy includes a country without a stock market or captains of high finance dictating economic development. Soviet Legacy is a health care system without insurance companies.

No one in their right mind would want to duplicate or reproduce the Soviet industrial socialism, which is impossible in America.

The Russian ruling class has its need to revive Stalin the individual, rather than Soviet Legacy as it faces an aggressive American Empire state.

Let’s be more thoughtful, more concrete and more serious as revolutionary propagandists on the side of the proletariat.

WL.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Stalinist <at> yahoogroups.com; soviet_legacy-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

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Marcell Rodden | 8 Nov 2011 21:34

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

Are you trying to say that there is a proletarian class in ameriKKKa let alone the oKKKupy movement of white middle class brats is a "working class movement"? lol

There will be no Soviets in ameriKKKa only what's enforced on ameriKKKa by the revolutionaries in the 3rd world.

Besides, I thought this list was for those itnerested in the Soviet Legacy (Legacy means past, duh) I had no idea that this was supposed to be some sort of revisionist political movement. If thatis so I'll remove myself from this list. I have no interest in white nationalism disguising itself as 1st world Marxism.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:31 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I found this submission 100% capitalist ideology. There was no Marxist narrative of Russia today under the leadership of custodians of private property.

The name of this list is Soviet Legacy rather than “Stalin Legacy.”

Stalin is the bone in the throat of the communist movement that can neither be swallowed nor coughed up. Soviet Legacy as a concept is larger than Stalin. Soviet Legacy needs renewal as the Occupy Movement changes the political discussion in America. Soviet Legacy Part is a country without capitalist corporations. It is a legacy of a system of higher education that does not reduced young educated people to indentured servants. This legacy includes a country without a stock market or captains of high finance dictating economic development. Soviet Legacy is a health care system without insurance companies.

No one in their right mind would want to duplicate or reproduce the Soviet industrial socialism, which is impossible in America.

The Russian ruling class has its need to revive Stalin the individual, rather than Soviet Legacy as it faces an aggressive American Empire state.

Let’s be more thoughtful, more concrete and more serious as revolutionary propagandists on the side of the proletariat.

WL.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Stalinist <at> yahoogroups.com; soviet_legacy-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

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darryl mitchell | 8 Nov 2011 22:08

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: soviet_legacy-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

Are you trying to say that there is a proletarian class in ameriKKKa let alone the oKKKupy movement of white middle class brats is a "working class movement"? lol

There will be no Soviets in ameriKKKa only what's enforced on ameriKKKa by the revolutionaries in the 3rd world.

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darryl mitchell | 8 Nov 2011 22:09

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

There is a proletariat class in America.

50% of the American people make $26,000 a year and less.

60% of the American people make $14 an hour or less and $14 equal $560 for forty hours.

The word proletariat means that human being that must sell their labor ability for wages or a job. Job as a social institution has only exited 200 years.

Are you a police, or cop or on the paid agencies of the state?

I ask because the paid agents never answer the real questions.

Yes there is a proletariat in America.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: soviet_legacy <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

Are you trying to say that there is a proletarian class in ameriKKKa let alone the oKKKupy movement of white middle class brats is a "working class movement"? lol

There will be no Soviets in ameriKKKa only what's enforced on ameriKKKa by the revolutionaries in the 3rd world.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:31 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I found this submission 100% capitalist ideology. There was no Marxist narrative of Russia today under the leadership of custodians of private property.

The name of this list is Soviet Legacy rather than “Stalin Legacy.”

Stalin is the bone in the throat of the communist movement that can neither be swallowed nor coughed up. Soviet Legacy as a concept is larger than Stalin. Soviet Legacy needs renewal as the Occupy Movement changes the political discussion in America. Soviet Legacy Part is a country without capitalist corporations. It is a legacy of a system of higher education that does not reduced young educated people to indentured servants. This legacy includes a country without a stock market or captains of high finance dictating economic development. Soviet Legacy is a health care system without insurance companies.

No one in their right mind would want to duplicate or reproduce the Soviet industrial socialism, which is impossible in America.

The Russian ruling class has its need to revive Stalin the individual, rather than Soviet Legacy as it faces an aggressive American Empire state.

Let’s be more thoughtful, more concrete and more serious as revolutionary propagandists on the side of the proletariat.

WL.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist <at> gmail.com>
To: Stalinist-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org; soviet_legacy <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

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Marcell Rodden | 8 Nov 2011 22:44

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

First of all, your stats are either wrong or exaggerated. The median income is around $46k per year in the U$. So maybe you are saying individuals make $26k, but that's not household income.

Even so, $26k per year places you in the top richest 9.49% in the world!

$14 per hour is above the value of labour. According to world GDP the value of labour is less than $6 per hour, that means ameriKKKans are subsidized by 3rd world labour wages.

http://llco.org/serve-the-peoples-rough-estimate-of-the-value-of-labor

"The word proletariat means that human being that must sell their labor ability for wages or a job"

No, sorry that's not what a proletarian is. Marx and Engels gave us characteristics of this oppressed class throughout many of their works such as Das Kapital, Grundrisse, Wage Labour and Capital and The Condition of the Working Class in England.

Do not own the means of productiuon
Depend on the capitalist to hire them each day to survive
do not own any capital or property that can draw capital
work in productive/manufacturing sectors
Are paid below the value of labour
They are a destitute people, who literally have "nothing to lose but their chains".

With the exception of #1 ameriKKKans and 1st worlders do not fit in this category, and even characteristic #1 does not describe all 1st world and ameriKKKan workers because many of them own stocks, shares and various stakes in companies, not just the one's they work for, and many own small businesses on the side.

Before you call yourself a Marxist, maybe you should read Marx.

http://llco.org/revisiting-value-and-exploitation

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:09 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

There is a proletariat class in America.

50% of the American people make $26,000 a year and less.

60% of the American people make $14 an hour or less and $14 equal $560 for forty hours.

The word proletariat means that human being that must sell their labor ability for wages or a job. Job as a social institution has only exited 200 years.

Are you a police, or cop or on the paid agencies of the state?

I ask because the paid agents never answer the real questions.

Yes there is a proletariat in America.

WL

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: soviet_legacy-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

Are you trying to say that there is a proletarian class in ameriKKKa let alone the oKKKupy movement of white middle class brats is a "working class movement"? lol

There will be no Soviets in ameriKKKa only what's enforced on ameriKKKa by the revolutionaries in the 3rd world.

Besides, I thought this list was for those itnerested in the Soviet Legacy (Legacy means past, duh) I had no idea that this was supposed to be some sort of revisionist political movement. If thatis so I'll remove myself from this list. I have no interest in white nationalism disguising itself as 1st world Marxism.

M.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:31 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I found this submission 100% capitalist ideology. There was no Marxist narrative of Russia today under the leadership of custodians of private property.

The name of this list is Soviet Legacy rather than “Stalin Legacy.”

Stalin is the bone in the throat of the communist movement that can neither be swallowed nor coughed up. Soviet Legacy as a concept is larger than Stalin. Soviet Legacy needs renewal as the Occupy Movement changes the political discussion in America. Soviet Legacy Part is a country without capitalist corporations. It is a legacy of a system of higher education that does not reduced young educated people to indentured servants. This legacy includes a country without a stock market or captains of high finance dictating economic development. Soviet Legacy is a health care system without insurance companies.

No one in their right mind would want to duplicate or reproduce the Soviet industrial socialism, which is impossible in America.

The Russian ruling class has its need to revive Stalin the individual, rather than Soviet Legacy as it faces an aggressive American Empire state.

Let’s be more thoughtful, more concrete and more serious as revolutionary propagandists on the side of the proletariat.

WL.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Stalinist-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org; soviet_legacy-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

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headers

darryl mitchell | 9 Nov 2011 16:28

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

We just have fundamentally different points of views, which is no crime.

The issue of Soviet Legacy is fundamentally an issue of economic organization without capitalists and the capitalist productive, and then how this was expressed in the ideological, social and political sphere.

To speak of the American people and the working class of America – as a class - as if they were affiliated with or sympathetic to the KKK is implied in your writing. This implication is a fundamental misunderstanding of American society. Assigning the American proletariat to the “first world” and those in the former direct and neo-colonies to “the Third world” began as the politics and ideology of is the colonial bourgeoisie – Nasser - of the post WW II period.

II. There is a huge destitute proletariat in America, and it is growing.

Its growth is due to several factors, including qualitative changes in the means of production, which greatly reduce the value of commodities and transforms the old industrial reserve army of labor into a destitute proletariat. That is to say, the old industrial reserve army of labor is no longer a “reserve” or “industrial” for that matter. A “reserve . . . . of industry,” means a mass of people thrown into the battle for production during peak periods of expansion of capitalist production. Peak period of production no longer require utilizing a “reserve” and consequently this new mass of destitute proletarians will never enter capitalist production.

Perhaps, you need to visit cities like Detroit and its surrounding areas and throughout Michigan where unemployment runs 50%. Actually, one would do well to examine the area of America called the Rust Bowl.

III. The issue of the “value relation” is not one of wage disparity or laborers in America being paid a wage greater than their counterparts elsewhere. The idea that the working class in America is paid a wage greater than the value they create in the global market hardly amusing.

Lower wage rates means greater exploitation or greater surplus value extraction. Even the American autoworkers, traditionally higher paid workers, were never paid a wage rate greater than the value they created. Apparently you call this wage disparity the American working class being subsided by less paid laborers in the global market. The issue of social revolution has very little to do with wage disparity in the global market or subsidies.

The working class of America is amongst the riches people on earth means exactly what? The implication is that classes do not exist in America. Well, classes exist in America and have always existed in America. Social revolution is the real issue here.

Social revolution is the result of qualitative changes in the means of production. Hence, the industrial revolution bookmarked as the invention of the steam engine and its related technologies.

Quantitative changes in the means of production calls forth reform of the system. The “system” being reformed was the industrial system. The last great reform of the means of production – the base of the system - was the period called “Fordism.” It was not wage disparity or the American workers being subsidized by other laborers that blocked social and political revolution.

Computers and robotics is to our society what the steam engine was to manufacturing and the world of landed property relations. Thus, America is entering another stage of social revolution and wage disparity cannot halt this process. What’s missing is the development of class consciousness, which is the task of an organization of revolutionaries. We modern 21st century revolutionaries are abolitionists on the side of the proletariat.

IV. In the real world we are dealing with a class being pushed into destitution. Hence, destitute proletariat. Stock ownership is worth examining, since you apparently attached significance to it.

Many retired workers have managed to hang on to some stock certificates but have had their pensions reduced by as much as 60% and face increased health care cost due to the collapse of their health care benefits. In real life this meant being forced into the Federal Pension Board, where ones pension is automatically reduced by say 35% and other measures are deployed effectively reducing pensions as much as 60%.

Let us assume these stocks yield say $1200 a year or $100 a month. Due to owning a handful of stock somehow this group of destitute proletarians undergoes a qualitative transformation into a non-proletariat. Stock and stock ownership - like everything else in life – ought to be looked at in concrete terms rather than abstraction. This means looking at dimensions of wealth. If I receive say a 1% or 10% on my stock or banking accounts, am I transformed into a non-proletariat due to collecting “rent?” The real issue is one of “dimension of wealth” and how this wealth is continuously reproduced - accumulated. I am not aware of any section of the American working class that accumulates wealth based on stock ownership. In my lifetime I have met a handful of workers that have been able to build wealth from stock, but they exist as an anomaly. Most of these small stock owners generally find their stock worthless, which is why our bourgeoisie offers stock in the first place. Stock ownership, like home ownership is a game for suckers and something out of reach for the American working class as a whole.

Perhaps, owning stock in 1848 was a sign of membership in a class other than the industrial proletariat.

Median income is of course a meaningless concept in real life. Saying that I am rich compared to the Chinese peasant means next to nothing.

Soviet Legacy, which got off to a bumpy start ought to be about the legacy of the Soviets rather than reduced to Stalin the individual. The problem with this list was the moderator reduced the initial discussion to the Moscow trials, the character and scope of political liberty under the Stalin regime.

Then again, perhaps list such as this have outlived their usefulness and need an entirely different orientation.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: soviet_legacy <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

First of all, your stats are either wrong or exaggerated. The median income is around $46k per year in the U$. So maybe you are saying individuals make $26k, but that's not household income.

http://llco.org/serve-the-peoples-rough-estimate-of-the-value-of-labor

"The word proletariat means that human being that must sell their labor ability for wages or a job"

Do not own the means of productiuon
Depend on the capitalist to hire them each day to survive
do not own any capital or property that can draw capital
work in productive/manufacturing sectors
Are paid below the value of labour
They are a destitute people, who literally have "nothing to lose but their chains".

Before you call yourself a Marxist, maybe you should read Marx.

http://llco.org/revisiting-value-and-exploitation

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:09 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

There is a proletariat class in America.

50% of the American people make $26,000 a year and less.

60% of the American people make $14 an hour or less and $14 equal $560 for forty hours.

The word proletariat means that human being that must sell their labor ability for wages or a job. Job as a social institution has only exited 200 years.

Are you a police, or cop or on the paid agencies of the state?

I ask because the paid agents never answer the real questions.

Yes there is a proletariat in America.

WL

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist <at> gmail.com>
To: soviet_legacy <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

Are you trying to say that there is a proletarian class in ameriKKKa let alone the oKKKupy movement of white middle class brats is a "working class movement"? lol

There will be no Soviets in ameriKKKa only what's enforced on ameriKKKa by the revolutionaries in the 3rd world.

Besides, I thought this list was for those itnerested in the Soviet Legacy (Legacy means past, duh) I had no idea that this was supposed to be some sort of revisionist political movement. If thatis so I'll remove myself from this list. I have no interest in white nationalism disguising itself as 1st world Marxism.

M.

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:31 PM, darryl mitchell <drrylmitchell-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I found this submission 100% capitalist ideology. There was no Marxist narrative of Russia today under the leadership of custodians of private property.

The name of this list is Soviet Legacy rather than “Stalin Legacy.”

Stalin is the bone in the throat of the communist movement that can neither be swallowed nor coughed up. Soviet Legacy as a concept is larger than Stalin. Soviet Legacy needs renewal as the Occupy Movement changes the political discussion in America. Soviet Legacy Part is a country without capitalist corporations. It is a legacy of a system of higher education that does not reduced young educated people to indentured servants. This legacy includes a country without a stock market or captains of high finance dictating economic development. Soviet Legacy is a health care system without insurance companies.

No one in their right mind would want to duplicate or reproduce the Soviet industrial socialism, which is impossible in America.

The Russian ruling class has its need to revive Stalin the individual, rather than Soviet Legacy as it faces an aggressive American Empire state.

Let’s be more thoughtful, more concrete and more serious as revolutionary propagandists on the side of the proletariat.

WL.

From: Marcell Rodden <marcelthemaoist <at> gmail.com>
To: Stalinist-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org; soviet_legacy <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: [soviet_legacy] Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

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mwilliss | 9 Nov 2011 23:38

Re: Tanks and troops parade across Red Square

There may be a small section of the new Russian bourgeoisie which is trying to appropriate Stalin's name and
to use it for purposes that have nothing to do with the legacy of the Soviet Union.  But to deny that the Soviet
legacy is inseparable from Stalin is like saying that sunshine has nothing to do with the sun.  History will
be kinder to Stalin than the anti-communist Robert Conquest and his clones.  History will not lie about
Stalin as did Khrushchov and the revisionists. Stalin was imbued with the communist spirit of confidence
in the people and took on the challenges of creating a Soviet society, defending it from the Nazis, and
standing up to the Anglo-US imperialists precisely because he had faith in the strength of the Soviet and
international working class.

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Arthur Maglin | 29 Nov 2011 13:46

Stalin's daughter dies in the US

A video report

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=z3HAvLhOCJo&feature=uploademail

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