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Stefan Merten | 12 Dec 12:01
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[ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

Hi!

[Since the workshop was in German I'm cc-ing the German list.]

Last Saturday I attended the workshop

	     COM' ON! - Die alte Eigentumswelt dreht sich

See http://commons.rosalux.de/ for the homepage.

The workshop has been organized by the Rosa-Luxemburg-Stiftung which
is the foundation of the party "Die Linke" in Germany. "Die Linke" is
the socialist party in Germany. As far as I understood the Keimform
people co-organized this event.

The workshop has been attended by about 40 persons. At least 8 of them
were on the Oekonux list at some point. It was very nice to meet all
these people again - some of them I had not met since years.

Some other people came from the broader commons debate. Most of the
remaining attendees I'd consider coming from the classical left which
is of course what "Die Linke" is.

The topic of the workshop was: What does the concept of commons mean
for the left in general and for "Die Linke" in particular.

Well, I'm not really into this commons debate but my impression is
this: It is composed of two discourses which IMHO have nothing to do
with each other. One of the discourses is the commons based peer
production discourse which is put forward by people like StefanMz and
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Lehor Meius | 16 Dec 10:56

Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

Hi

Just wanted to add my opinion on this. :)

It is my belief, that "classical" left (pre-60's) opinion proceeds from 
agricultural and basic production (from "earth" if you wish). Peer 
production originates from the realms of virtual production (or 
"heaven"). Perhaps the conflict arises because in the virtual world the 
ideal of Marx ("voluntary association of independent producers") is in 
some cases already a reality.

In modern times the virtual and basic production are no longer separate 
worlds, since ICT is integrated more and more into everything and brings 
its logic along with it into new sectors of production.

The aim, I belive, is still the same - both movements originally want 
to give the individuals control over the means of production so they 
could produce their own livelihood. In the virtual realm means of 
production can be reproduced for every single individual. In the realm 
of natural resources, energy, land this is not possible, so they have to 
be seized in some manner for different modes of usership. (However, the 
ICT world has also some experience with common physical resources, since 
the physical infrastructure or bandwidth of the internet could perhaps 
be viewed that way).

Nevertheless in the realm of physical resources the original left 
theories might still be relevant, even if this is no longer true for 
production.

On identity politics - I don't think they can be considered classically
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Patrick Anderson | 16 Dec 23:41
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Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

> "physical" requires land and energy
> "virtual" doesn't require such things.

This is true for virtual things as concepts,
but not for any *instance* of such things.

Every virtual thing requires the physical
to host and express that virtual concept.

For example, a computer program can
exist conceptually, as an idea that may
eventually be discovered - without any
amount of land or energy.

But when someone dreams of that idea,
and when they try to show others, they
will need to use their hands or voices to
enter that idea into a physical computer.

That computer will need land on which
it will sit, and energy which it will use to
host and express that concept.

If we do not admit the physical basis of
the virtual realm, we will never be able to
host computing for our own benefit, but
will instead continue to rely upon Google,
Amazon, the ISPs, etc. to own those
Means of Production while they continue
to use them against us.
(Continue reading)

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Diego Saravia | 17 Dec 21:45
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Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

> This is true for virtual things as concepts,
> but not for any *instance* of such things.

the marginal cost of so many virtual "things" is almost 0

so in practical terms are free (not only perhaps "libres"), but with 0 cost
for whom uses them
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt@...
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Patrick Anderson | 17 Dec 21:56
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Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

Diego Saravia wrote:
> the marginal cost of so many virtual "things" is almost 0
>
> so in practical terms are free (not only perhaps "libres"),
> but with 0 cost for whom uses them

If virtual things are 0 cost to use, I wonder why Google
spends so much to host those things...

Why do they pretend to spend so much to house and
deliver petabytes of video data from YouTube?

Why do all of us pay so much to ISPs when we could
just connect with each other for no cost at all?

Why does Wikipedia continue asking for funds?  Are
they just pocketing the money?

For a less sarcastic analysis, see:
http://www.oekonux.org/list-en/archive/msg04253.html
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt@...
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Diego Saravia | 18 Dec 02:36
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Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

> Why do all of us pay so much to ISPs when we could
> just connect with each other for no cost at all?

do you pay a variable rate or a fixed rate?

I pay a fixed rate so for me, marginal cost is 0.

For google earns money from its operations

--

-- 
Diego Saravia
Diego.Saravia@...
NO FUNCIONA->dsa@...
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt@...
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Stefan Merten | 19 Dec 10:35
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[ox-en] Oekonux book

Hi list!

Those who have participated longer in Oekonux may remember that once
in a while we discussed the option of an Oekonux book. Finally I made
up my mind: The Oekonux book needs to be written now! I am ready to do
most of the work to make this happen.

The topic of the book will be

	     Peer production as a new mode of production

I.e. the central underlying topic of the whole Oekonux debate. It will
explain basic Oekonux theory fragments stitching them together to form
a comprehensible big picture.

Instead of a collection of more or less independent articles it will
have a story line. It should follow a scientific approach but on the
other hand it needs to be comprehensible enough to be readable for the
general public.

It will be in English. The main writing should be done until the end
of 2012 - though this is not a fixed date but more a goal to work
towards.

As of now I'm not completely sure of how exactly this will work. What
I know, however, is this: I don't want to do it alone. So during the
last few weeks I asked some friends for their contribution. StefanMz,
Graham, FranzN and ChristianS agreed to contribute. It's my goal that
none of them needs to disagree with anything in the book.
(Continue reading)

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Diego Saravia | 19 Dec 19:53
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Re: [ox-en] Oekonux book

>   1. Evidence for a new mode of production
>
>      * Free Software
>
>      * Wikipedia
>
>      * Open Access, Free Hardware, Free Music, Open Streetmap
>

if all examples are of the virtual kind  you cannot argue about
something extrapolable to material goods, your book cannot be used to
support the idea of a new mode of production or exchange for all kinds
off goods.

In that line the book "must" study peer production of material goods.
Non fordian industrial organisation in witch all workers split a
portion of the work assuming its own capital (non marxian explotation)
, and coordinate work via participative enabling  software (non
vertical order).  These are the two roots of the new production mode
in marxian terms.

if we fail to provide some examples of that kind, the only theoretical
new stuff under the hood is marginal cost freedom due to virtuallity.

Materialistic cooperative open source methods are where we can find
the foundations of a new production mode and not in ethical free
software, free of cost copying. (these ethical ideals are a legal
necesity in a corrupted word, but not the motor of a new era)
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
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Diego Saravia | 19 Dec 19:57
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Re: [ox-en] Oekonux book

> support the idea of a new mode of production or exchange for all kinds
> off goods.

or non exchange

> Materialistic

and dialectical

>cooperative open source methods are where we can find
> the foundations of a new production mode and not in ethical free
> software, free of cost copying. (these ethical ideals

and metaphysical

>are a legal

enabling

> necesity in a corrupted word, but not the motor of a new era)
_________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.org/
Organization: http://www.oekonux.de/projekt/
Contact: projekt@...
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Lehor Meius | 20 Dec 11:15

Re: [ox-en] Report from COM'ON workshop: Dam builders and ship builders

Yes, this is true, but the difference comes from viewpoint. For someone 
who works mostly with software, the abudance seems normal order of 
things. And for someone who works with resources and basic production, 
abudance seems like something that would perhaps be possible with major 
political and economic rearrangements in society.

The differences between Peer Producers and old Left appear from their 
different locations in the production system. But truly new society is 
possible only when the total reality of production and culture is 
considered and therefore it seems to me, that new and old ideologies 
must merge into a new coherent ideological system for the 21st century.

L.

On 17.12.2011 00:41, Patrick Anderson wrote:
>> "physical" requires land and energy
>> "virtual" doesn't require such things.
>
> This is true for virtual things as concepts,
> but not for any *instance* of such things.
>
> Every virtual thing requires the physical
> to host and express that virtual concept.
>
> For example, a computer program can
> exist conceptually, as an idea that may
> eventually be discovered - without any
> amount of land or energy.
>
> But when someone dreams of that idea,
(Continue reading)

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Gmane