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Lajany Otum | 1 Nov 01:02
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RE: Stan Goff, Bill Fletcher and the 2-party system


"Austin, Andrew" <austina <at> uwgb.edu> wrote:

> Louis, you should know that when it comes to matters 
> of constitutional and international legal protections there 
> is a difference between Republicans and Democrats, 
> and that this difference is important to the basic human 
> rights that some of us still have an interest in preserving. 
> How you can treat matters of torture and loss of 
> constitutional protections in such a flippant manner is a 
> striking example of your increasing kneejerk shallowness 
> in thinking about the issues of the day.
>

This "world of difference" would explain why the US senate 
 voted  by unanimous consent to make the Patriot Act 
 "permanent" in 2005, and why the Military Commissions 
 Act of 2006, which tore up habeas corpus, was passed into 
 law with barely a whimper by the supposed parliamentary
 opposition, a sizeable number of whom even crossed over
 to support the Act. 

 The wall that Andrew imagines between US imperialism 
 and the shrinking sphere of legal protections of the rights 
 of the citizens of this state does not exist. A nation that 
 oppresses another forges its own chains -- and to the 
 extent that both wings of the ruling class support 
 indefinite colonial wars, so are they responsible for the
 increasingly naked domestic repression that these will 
 inevitably engender.
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Lajany Otum | 1 Nov 01:05
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RE: Stan Goff, Bill Fletcher and the 2-party system

"Austin, Andrew" <austina <at> uwgb.edu> wrote:

> Louis, you should know that when it comes to matters 
> of constitutional and international legal protections there 
> is a difference between Republicans and Democrats, 
> and that this difference is important to the basic human 
> rights that some of us still have an interest in preserving. 
> How you can treat matters of torture and loss of 
> constitutional protections in such a flippant manner is a 
> striking example of your increasing kneejerk shallowness 
> in thinking about the issues of the day.
>

This "world of difference" would explain why the US senate 
 voted  by unanimous consent to make the Patriot Act 
 "permanent" in 2005, and why the Military Commissions 
 Act of 2006, which tore up habeas corpus, was passed into 
 law with barely a whimper by the supposed  parliamentary
 opposition, a sizeable number of whom even crossed over
 to support the Act. 

 The wall that Andrew imagines between US imperialism 
 and the shrinking sphere of legal protections of the rights 
 of the citizens of this state does not exist. A nation that 
 oppresses another forges its own chains -- and to the 
 extent that both wings of the ruling class support 
 indefinite colonial wars, so are they responsible for the
 increasingly naked domestic repression that these wars 
will inevitably engender.
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Dayne Goodwin | 1 Nov 01:22

bi-partisan imperialism is better (was)RE: Moderator's note

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Austin, Andrew wrote:
> 	. . . I advocate voting for the party in the midterm
> elections to deprive the Republican Party of control over all branches
> of the US government. . .

The Bush administration needs to make a change of course in Iraq.  They
are practically advertising* that there will be a change of course after
the elections, i.e. James Baker's BI-PARTISAN Iraq Study Group to the
rescue (5 from each capitalist party on the leadership committee, hordes
more on the 'expert working groups'
<http://www.usip.org/isg/members.html>)

	It would be a big help if the Democrat Party can become the
majority party in at least one branch of congress.  Then, ah shucks, Bush
will "have" to become a statesman and negotiate a new bi-partisan strategy
with the other imperialist party.  It won't just be a top-down adjustment
by leading bi-partisan managers of the U.S. empire, it will be a product
of "the democratic system."  And everyone who voted for Democrat Party
candidates will already be signed on for the new bi-partisan phase of
imperialist strategy.

Dayne

* my suggested advertising slogan: "nine out of ten U.S. imperialists
agree that bi-partisan imperialism is better"

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Austin, Andrew | 1 Nov 01:25
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Communism and Support for Bourgeois Parties

-----Original Message-----
From: marxism-bounces <at> lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:marxism-bounces <at> lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Carlos Petroni
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:49 PM
To: marxism <at> lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: RE: [Marxism] Moderator's note

You do have lots of ideological commitments to the Democratic Party,
otherwise you would not support it at election time. 

...

And of course, your protestations notwithstanding, you are NOT a
communist.  A communist is a member of a historic movement of the
working class whose fundamental aim and objetive is to mobilize the
working class and its allies, independently of its class enemies (i.e:
bourgbeoisie, Democratic Party), etc in order to take power and destruct
the existing political/economic system and start building a socialsit
society run by the democratic institutions of the working class. Voting,
supporting, even tactically, for one election, puts you squarely outside
the aims and objectives of a communist movement.

* * *

No, I really don't have any ideological commitments to the party,
Carlos.  My vote is purely strategic.  It is, in fact, and I haven't
decided whether this is ironic or not, those who argue that there is
never a reason to vote for the Democratic Party that have an ideological
commitment, although it doesn't seem to be to communism.
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Walter Lippmann | 1 Nov 01:32
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Re: Democratic Party Politics

In the upcoming California elections, I'll be voting for Peter Camejo,
the Green Party candidate for Governor, and otherwise will vote for
the Peace and Freedom Party slate. Peter is the best spokesperson
there is in California, and perhaps the nation, for the need for a new
third alternative political party. The Greens seem to have a many 
more resources than does PFP. Both have been very thoroughly 
excluded from newspaper coverage. They were both excluded from
the debates, which were limited to the donkey and the elephant.

Both the Greens and Peace and Freedom have been systemattically
excluded from the media coverage. Since Peace and Freedom seems
to have less resources than the Greens, and because it explicitly calls
itself a socialist organization, which the Greens don't, that's why I'm
voting PFP all the way except or Peter for Governor. Of course, from
an electoral standpoint, none of this has any significance since none
of them stand any chance whatsoever of being elected. PFP needs
more help to maintain its ballot status.

Walter Lippmann
Los Angeles

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Austin, Andrew | 1 Nov 01:37
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RE: bi-partisan imperialism is better (was)RE: Moderator'snote

Dayne,

I am curious.  I really want to know.  How are you going to vote this
November 7th that will bring about an end to imperialism?  Ending
imperialism is not on the ballot in my state.  All I can do on November
7th is vote for a few politicians who may, when joined with other
politicians, act to slow down the death and destruction in Iraq, the
destruction of my constitutional rights, and other terrible things.
That would be a big improvement over the current direction.  Voting on
November 7th is only one strategic moment, Dayne.  There are many more.
Pick your spots.

Andrew

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Dayne Goodwin | 1 Nov 01:45

RE: bi-partisan imperialism is better (was)RE: Moderator'snote

You've got the issue/question backwards Andrew.  What i want to know is
Why are you voting for an imperialist party?  Do you think that this will
bring an end to imperialism?
Dayne

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Austin, Andrew wrote:

> Dayne,
>
> I am curious.  I really want to know.  How are you going to vote this
> November 7th that will bring about an end to imperialism?  Ending
> imperialism is not on the ballot in my state.  All I can do on November
> 7th is vote for a few politicians who may, when joined with other
> politicians, act to slow down the death and destruction in Iraq, the
> destruction of my constitutional rights, and other terrible things.
> That would be a big improvement over the current direction.  Voting on
> November 7th is only one strategic moment, Dayne.  There are many more.
> Pick your spots.
>
> Andrew
>
> ________________________________________________
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> Send list submissions to: Marxism <at> lists.econ.utah.edu
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>

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Sayan Bhattacharyya | 1 Nov 01:50
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Fwd: NYT: Irwin's rebuttal of Edward Said's _Orientalism_

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sayan  Bhattacharyya <ok.president+foil <at> gmail.com>
Date: Oct 31, 2006 7:48 PM
Subject: NYT: Irwin's rebuttal of Edward Said's _Orientalism_
To: FOIL LIST <foil-l <at> insaf.net>

New York Times
November 1, 2006
Books of The Times

The West Studies the East, and Trouble Follows
By WILLIAM GRIMES

Review of  _Dangerous Knowledge:  Orientalism and Its Discontents_  by
Robert Irwin
The Overlook Press. 410 pages. $35.

Edward W. Said published his highly influential polemic "Orientalism"
nearly 30 years ago, and Robert Irwin, a British specialist in the
history and culture of the Middle East, has been fuming ever since.
"Dangerous Knowledge" is his belated two-pronged response: a
point-by-point rebuttal of Mr. Said, folded into a history of Western
scholarship devoted to the Middle East.

Mr. Irwin delays his direct attack until the penultimate chapter but
throws down the gauntlet early. "Orientalism," which indicts the
entire field of Eastern studies as racist and imperialist, he
characterizes in the introduction as "a work of malignant
charlatanry."
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Louis Proyect | 1 Nov 01:50
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Reminder

Marxmail has a six post a day limit. This debate on the DP is 
generating a huge amount of excessive mail in which some people have 
been overposting. It has also reached the point where the same 
arguments are being repeated. I want everybody to think very hard 
whether they are saying something new before they post again. This 
has become extremely tedious.

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Walter Lippmann | 1 Nov 02:25
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P.W. Botha, South Africa's Ex-Leader, Dies at 90

(A timely reminder of what the apartheid system in South Africa was. Here
you
get a sense of the mentality of what racism and its institutionalized form
of
which Both was a central representative figure. Those who haven't seen CATCH
A FIRE, or other films which give us a sense of that time period, perhaps an
inverse sense can be obtain from a review of this key reactionary's life. 

Via this man's life we can grasp what Bob Marley was teaching against in
"War":

Until the philosophy which hold one race superior
And another
Inferior
Is finally
And permanently
Discredited
And abandoned -
Everywhere is war -
Me say war.
============================================================================
=

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/world/africa/01bothacnd.html?pagewanted=al
l

October 31, 2006
P.W. Botha, South Africa's Ex-Leader, Dies at 90
By JOSEPH R. GREGORY
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Gmane