Kirby Fry | 1 Jan 13:52 2004
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Re: Re: Greenhouse Design

Hi Paul,

Thanks for all the great tips.  We just ordered the materials for greenhouse
number two.  We decided to build a single gable with polly carbonate panels
($16 per panel for 38 panels - ouch!) on both sides of the gable.

The south, east and west walls will have 32" by 60" single pane windows ($79
each) and two clear, 36" wide storm doors ($99 each) as continuously as
framing will allow.  The north wall will be buried 4' into the hill side and
be completely covered with hardy panel siding.  We are installing a louvered
fan and vent at the gable ends that will be on a thermostat switch, but as
of now we haven't exactly figured out how to passively vent the ridge, and
are still flipping through catalogs looking for ceiling panels that can be
opened with a hand crank.

Are their some industry standards for greenhouse ridge / ceiling vents?  Do
you think we even have a chance of growing out the micro-greens in the
summer?  I wonder what the difference is between a conservatory and a
greenhouse is.  I imagine a conservatory as a place where some English
botanist collects and grows tropical African violets and South American
orchids year round in London.

I imagine that there will be a shade cloth we roll out in the spring, summer
and fall that is somehow attached just below the collar ties.  However,
their will probably be an overhead irrigation system that we'll have to stay
above.  Maybe we should drop the collar ties to wall height and roll out the
shade cloth above them.  The louvered fan and vent would then be well above
the shade cloth and I guess we would need at least four or so circulatory
fans below the shade cloth.

(Continue reading)

Paul A Cross | 1 Jan 20:16 2004

Re: Greenhouse Design

Kirby wrote:

> number two.  We decided to build a single gable with polly carbonate panels
> ($16 per panel for 38 panels - ouch!) on both sides of the gable.
>
> The south, east and west walls will have 32" by 60" single pane windows ($79
> each) and two clear, 36" wide storm doors ($99 each) as continuously as
> framing will allow.  The north wall will be buried 4' into the hill side and
> be completely covered with hardy panel siding.  We are installing a louvered
> fan and vent at the gable ends that will be on a thermostat switch, but as
> of now we haven't exactly figured out how to passively vent the ridge, and
> are still flipping through catalogs looking for ceiling panels that can be
> opened with a hand crank.

Knowing the dimensions of the actual structure itself would be helpful, too.

If you can design a ridge vent that opens continously along the entire length
of the greenhouse for about 4 feet, along with sides (or in your case one
side?) that open up continuously along length for about 5 feet high, you will
have great ventilation. Something like this will be passive. The commercial
guys use a motor and a drive shaft attached to  arced gear plates that open
the top roof panel all in one section. You could probably buy such a system
from a greenhouse

> Are their some industry standards for greenhouse ridge / ceiling vents?  Do
> you think we even have a chance of growing out the micro-greens in the
> summer?  I wonder what the difference is between a conservatory and a

Yes, with enough venting (active and passive) you should be able to do MGs in
summer.
(Continue reading)

CAVM | 1 Jan 20:23 2004
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Re: Greenhouse design

Paul, Perhaps it would help you understand how the hologram disperses light if I sent you the Penn State study on greenhouse applications of holograms. 
 
Neal Van Milligen
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Arlene | 1 Jan 22:33 2004
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Re: Re: Greenhouse design

Wow! You all have a wealth of information on greenhouse design! Thank 
you for the tips.

Paul, we intend to use our greenhouse year-round to grow tropical 
plants, especially dwarf versions of fruit trees such as banana, 
cherimoya, rollinia, avocado, etc. for home use. Also, probably some 
mushrooms and other non-tropical food crops in colder months. No 
commercial aspirations. The environment will need to be both warm and 
humid year-round. We plan to attach the greenhouse to an existing 
southeast-facing wall of the house and want it to be sturdy and 
aesthetic. The area available has about a 10 x 15' footprint. We would 
also like to use the solar gain in the winter to help heat the house, 
probably using some version of John Cruickshank's SHCS (Subterranean 
Heating and Cooling System). A few days ago, the temperature at night 
went down to 19 degrees! This was a thirty-year low for Tucson, but if 
it happened once... By the way, we already have a 100 SF shade house, 
open to the elements. It works great for relatively hardy plants, but is 
not enough protection for tropicals.

Neal, when you send out the Penn State study on greenhouse applications 
of holograms can you include me on the list?

Brian, thanks for the links regarding filtering infrared light.

Happy New Year everyone!
Arlene

Review Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability David Holmgren

hi everyone
        A new year begins , here is a review of David Holmgren New Book   Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, that has been reviewed by Wendy Smyer Yu in the current issue of Hopedance Magazine #42 Jan/Feb 2004, www.hopedance.org
        To order the book and support the Permaculture Community, the Book can be ordered from Permaculture Activist PO Box 1209 , Black Mountain, NC 28711 cost $28, with $4 shipping. Go to the Activists Magazine www.permacultureactivists.org to see the whole range of Permaculture Books carried
                wes  roe www.sbpermaculture.org
                        


Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability
David Holmgren
2002
Holmgren Design Services
16 Fourteenth Street
Hepburn, Victoria 3461
Australia
ISBN 0-646-41844-0

Review by Wendy Smyer Yu of Davis CA

        These days, in the midst of petroleum wars and blackouts, it’s amazingly taboo for mainstream media to discuss our energy addiction as such, or to suggest that Americans are energy abusers heading toward some sort of O.D./crash/potential rehab.  Gather with permaculturists, however, and it seems that’s the stuff of daily conversation, the impetus behind the movement.  David Holmgren, in Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, sets out to provide design principles to understand the roots of our energy crisis and to fashion a new culture that can hopefully ride the rough waters ahead. 
        Holmgren delineates twelve principles that characterize permaculture design and that will help us transition through the energy descent that will occur as petroleum supplies diminish.  These twelve principles are meant to provide guidelines and applications to all aspects of design and encourage alternative ways of thinking about long term costs and long term benefits.   For example, the way we view energy decline is culturally loaded, so that we consider growth as positive and stability or decline as negative factors that we devote more energy to boosting.  Starting from the premise that a capitalist worldview, which perceives continued growth as the only indication of success, is counter to ecological principles, Holmgren says, “We have trouble visualizing decline as positive, but this simply reflects the dominance of our prior culture of growth. Permaculture is a whole-hearted adaptation to the ecological realities of decline which are as natural and creative as those of growth.” 
        A superficial (chronologically speaking) consideration of energy descent focuses on a fear-filled future - replete with looting, rioting, starvation, mass migration, and war, but a serious look at permaculture and implementation of its principles can offer a positive perspective about human life after energy gluttony.  Understanding humanity’s energy usage in biological/ecological terms it is apparent that we have followed nature’s patterns remarkably well.  A system characterized by excessive energy is filled with diversity, rapid change, and instability.  When energy surplus is consumed the system either crashes or, creatively, it uses that energy to settle into a low energy stability that stores limited energy more efficiently.
        The first principle considered by Holmgren prepares the ground for the subsequent principles, showing the foundation of permaculture.  Of the principle “Observe and Interact,” Holmgren writes, “Good design depends on a free and harmonious relationship to nature and people…[o]bservation and interaction involve a two-way process between subject and object, the designer and the system.”  The key to designing for a low-energy future, he suggests, is the need to recognize patterns and relations, something difficult in our society which honors reductionist thinking and prefers mediated or secondary information.
        What makes this book truly heartening, and relevant today, is that the focus on global change grows forth from a very grounded locus of action, namely with individuals, households, and communities which seek to increase self-reliance.   Holmgren writes, “Learning to think wholistically requires an overriding, or reversal, of much of the cultural heritage of the last few hundred years.  With little experience of whole-system thinking and such cultural impediments, we need to focus our efforts on simple and accessible whole systems before we try to amend large and complex ones.  The self is the most accessible and potentially comprehensible whole system.”  Permaculture is, at heart, a personal movement - one that insists we refrain from judging personal change as something less than any sort of “mass’ movement not grounded in fundamental personal responsibility.  A future for humanity beyond just sustaining things as they are and that actively embraces the creativity of change in descent requires that we offer our utmost commitment in our own lives on outward into larger spheres of influence.  David Holmgren’s new book clarifies and simplifies the tools and principles on which to base that commitment for great good.

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sixdegrees | 2 Jan 18:26 2004
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Re: Review Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability David Holmgren

Greetings, i have read Holmgren's book and recommend it.
 
Bob Ewing
222.restoretheearth.ca
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: [permaculture] Review Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability David Holmgren

hi everyone
        A new year begins , here is a review of David Holmgren New Book   Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, that has been reviewed by Wendy Smyer Yu in the current issue of Hopedance Magazine #42 Jan/Feb 2004, www.hopedance.org
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Graham Burnett | 2 Jan 18:32 2004
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Re: Review Permaculture: Principles and PathwaysBeyond Sustainability David Holmgren

Me too!
 
graham Burnett www.spiralseed.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
From: sixdegrees
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Review Permaculture: Principles and PathwaysBeyond Sustainability David Holmgren

Greetings, i have read Holmgren's book and recommend it.
 
Bob Ewing
222.restoretheearth.ca
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: [permaculture] Review Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability David Holmgren

hi everyone
        A new year begins , here is a review of David Holmgren New Book   Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, that has been reviewed by Wendy Smyer Yu in the current issue of Hopedance Magazine #42 Jan/Feb 2004, www.hopedance.org

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Paul A Cross | 2 Jan 20:04 2004

Re: Greenhouse design

Arlene, warm and humid should be pretty easy to create in your attached
structure. I would bet a misting system would be really useful for you.
There's one just being installed at the university right there in Tucson; you
might be able to arrange a tour.

Regarding John Cruickshank's SHCS (Subterranean Heating and Cooling System),
make me curious about the possible effects of all the molds and fungi that I
imagine are pumped out of the ground and into the air. Has anyone looked at
this?

Paul
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Re: Re: Greenhouse design for southern climates

Marilyn
Excuse my ignorance but are the drums sealed or is evaporation part of 
the process?
Thanks
Dominic Dring

Tel:  0034 952 15 32 92
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I live in New Mexico and 50 gallon drums of water in the greenhouse work 
great to keep the temp even.   They heat in the winter and cool in the summer.   

Marilyn Conway

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">I live in New Mexico and 50 gallon drum=
s of water in the greenhouse work great to keep the temp even.&nbsp;  They h=
eat in the winter and cool in the summer.&nbsp;  <BR>
<BR>
Marilyn Conway</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSS=
ERIF" SIZE=3D"2"></FONT></HTML>

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Arlene | 2 Jan 22:23 2004
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Re: Re: Greenhouse design

Paul A Cross wrote:

>Arlene, warm and humid should be pretty easy to create in your attached
>structure. I would bet a misting system would be really useful for you.
>There's one just being installed at the university right there in Tucson; you
>might be able to arrange a tour.
>

Thanks for the tip on the University of Arizona. I should be able to 
reach someone there when school resumes in a couple of weeks.

>Regarding John Cruickshank's SHCS (Subterranean Heating and Cooling System),
>make me curious about the possible effects of all the molds and fungi that I
>imagine are pumped out of the ground and into the air. Has anyone looked at
>this?
>  
>
Don't know, but I have forwarded your question on to John and will let 
you know his reply.

Thanks for keeping this thread going.  I am learning a lot!
Arlene

Gmane