2 Sep 2003 13:10
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2 Sep 2003 23:12
RE: energy options WAS energy futures
Kelly: I'm sorry if I have annoyed you with my argumentation - I hope you like to chew into an argument as that is what I am inviting here so as to refine thinking. Argument and discussion is a good thing for the discovery of truth, especially about the really important things like energy. I do consider you a friend and hope you will visit the Yarrow Ecovillage when you come by Vancouver soon. Anybody else on this list is invited to come and see as well. We already have somebody visit who drove in from Midwest just to see us (as part of a vacation) but he thinks he might stay. I can tell you are have thought much and care about the energy situation for the good of our clients, friends and family. You are one of the few on this list who woke up to my call about energy and relevant permaculture. How might we get a real debate going on the permaculture list serve? I'd like to change the thread name to Permaculture and Energy or Energy Options. Energy futures is suggestive of merely predictions not actionable options we discuss. > > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:15:13 -0700, Harold Waldock wrote > > It is cheap and efficient to put a hot water to air "radiator" into a > > standard gas furnace less than $1000 and you can keep the gas burning > > component for back up or peaking. > > yup, it might be "cheap" but this is only part of a district heating > system...think about the $ and energy costs of: installing heat > exchangers > at the electricity plant; mining, refining, shipping and installing > kilometres of large-diameter pipes to individual houses...a CAREFUL full- > cycle energy (& EMERGY) analysis is needed here. Yes, it would not work well in many suburban subdivisions but in higher density situations it works quite well all over Europe as retrofits. CHP - District heating systems lend themselves to biomass operations , ground source heat pumps, utility scale renewable power as well. Emergy Analysis: I am concerned about analysis paralysis otherwise known as utopian idealism here. While emergy may show relatively poor results, district heating would be transitional and far better than what we have now. But transitional is all we have to achieve in our lifetime. Let the perfect design be perfected over time. I propose to the Permaculture Movement a saying, "If it is not transitional it is not Permaculture." The idea lurks in many of the PC writings. by the way, if you have a water district heating system, WHY > would you keep > an inefficient gas-fired furnace for backup?? the district heat would be > very RELIABLE. Permaculture design teaches "Many elements for a single function" and "Prepare for disaster". Also it is a selling point for people afraid to get into a service as they can also back out of easily. > > A local company http://www.taylormunro.com/index.html is designing > > a system that has solar hotwater panels, hotwater tank and then it > > preheats your hotwater with a tankless heater and has a line out to > > the forced air system so it will heat your house. > > I know of them well and their installations in Courtney/Comox. I've also > worked on projects like this here...if you contemplate this type > of system, > you have no need for a district heating system...are you petitioning for > what I said in my last email post? "snip" No just being interesting, by including nearly irrelevant info as an aside. See next comment also though. > "...my gut feel (maybe > > > someone could challenge/confirm this with facts / figures in the > > > future???) > > > is it would be better to keep the existing infrastructure and > upgrade our > > > buildings rather than put in new infrastructure...I suspect > > > weatherstripping, insulating and adding a "solar engine" > would be energy- > > > wise and economically cheaper than bringing NEW pipelines down > > > the street, > > > installing NEW heat circulation systems (e.g. radiators),"etc I've been told over and over again that it is cheaper (financially sustainable and sustainable) to build and design directly for sustainability than to try to modify in major ways an existing building. The vast majority of existing houses have no solar orientation, little insulation, few big south facing windows etc etc. There is more value to starting over in most cases. This is the problem of not working from the edges in classic PC style where one can start over where as when one starts from the centre - suburbia and an established house - things are much harder. Alternately is would be wise to run down the asset and take what is valuable (wood from the frame) and start over. Actually, I am forced to think about CHP & district heating because solar hot water/space heating has such poor payback locally- still 20 years at current gas prices. Ground source heat pump is good but a pricey retrofit at Can$10,000-15,000. I suspect district heating could be connected to a pipe in the street for less than a new condensing gas furnace CAN$3000- 4000 plus frequent repairs. $1000 minimum for putting an air to water heat exchanger into old gas furnace and around CAN$1600 to install a hotwater pipe (my friend just had her fresh water supply reinstalled for that price). District hot water energy costs might be up to 1/3 gas energy costs and much more stable. The key to the cost effectiveness of a district heating system is the density of users and the competition. > so, my question to you is: are you agreeing with me, extending my > point or > disagreeing??? it is unclear...if you are attempting to disagree > with what I > said, I'd love to see the logical backup information so we can > make better > decisions about how/where to apply our time/money/resources. > > It is rediculous to say that buying hotwater from a hot water > > district is more socialist than buying btu's from oil or gas > > suppliers. What would be socialist is to continue to pay oil and > > gas suppliers high prices when it is cheaper (usually much cheaper) > > to get hot water from a hot water district. > I did not say "buying hotwater from a hot water district is more > socialist"...I said I think it may be PERCEIVED as such and resisted > (perhaps quite vigorously) accordingly . Permaculture must deal with > the "invisible" structures. Alberta, where I live is a very > conservative, do- > it-yourself, look-out-for-yourself, more-Texas-than-Texas (we have no > progressive balancing communities such as Austin), wild-west, free-market > place. Yes, I missed the word perceived. I'm sorry. I attacked what you said what others would say as what you said but I only attacked what was said not you as a person. I agree invisible structures must be dealt with and I am no good at that. Have you got hints? District heating does not have to be marketed in a socialist form. Gas companies might complain of predatory pricing though.Here in BC the pressure is on to increase electrical rates lest natural gas become more expensive and homeowners switch to electricity. Perhaps Alberta has changed from the days when it was leader with Saskatchewan in creating coops and developing the ideas behind the old Social Credit Party. All I can say, and have been saying, is that in densely populated neighbourhoods of Alberta, companies with a district heating & combined heat and power operation can offer cheap heat cheaper than any gas company. There are 2 companies that are doing this now in Canada one of them lately pairing up with greenhouses. > Electricity and natural gas were, until a few years ago, public > utilities - i.e. established and managed for the benefit of the > public. Now, > these are private ("deregulated") utilities - it is now a > "dog-eat-dog" free > market. To establish a business case for district heating > generally requires > co-operation: everybody can benefit in the long term if people work > together...but only if they work together...it costs more $ at the > electricity plant, it costs more $ to link the buildings together with > pipes, and a large number of people have to do this together (i.e. co- > operatively). Around here, anything smacking of co-operation or "good for > all" is seen as a form of "socialism"...it certainly is not the > "Capitalism" > vision of "each individual get the most they can". I don't hold much hope > for sizable district heating around here in the near future, unless it's > implemented by private developers. When considering CHP operations the power is where money is made where as the heating district might be considered gravy - extra. Cooperation in a formal sense of "a coop" is not necessary. Consumer aggregation is necessary and that is the job of marketing just like every new condo - if the buyers sign up the building will be built and the condo owners will get good value if all goes well. (BTW Condo law was developed from coops needing each individual to have financial holdings - people do not consider condo/strata title to be socialist although they are a kind of non profit.) It does not have to marketed as green socialist Kyoto Protocol positive etc. It can win on price and the stability of pricing that green/renewable energy has which gas delivered to a home cannot. I am certain that private developers will be doing it because permaculture thinking is becoming one of the few reasonable and profitable ways to think. I want to encourage you to see the possibilities and not to fear, as you are a very thoughtful engineer. We need more engineers/permaculturalists like you and I'd like to see you with money too. Lets assess options - they are needed now. > What I think is "rediculous" [sic] is for you, from another > region, to pre- > suppose how other people/cultures think - Alberta IS a different culture > than B.C. If Albertans see new services and utilities based on not locally used technologies by local businesses owned by investors or buyers as socialist then Alberta is in real trouble. Truth is not determined by culture. People who think that truth is determined by culture are cultural relativists. Untruth spoken, even if by Albertans, attracts ridicule and what attracts ridicule is ridiculous. To say that something is ridiculous is to give warning of potential ridicule but not to actually ridicule it. > Also, I'm curious how paying "oil and gas suppliers high prices > when it is > cheaper..." is socialist? I think it is stupid, and basically > inefficient, > but fail to see it as socialist (or good for all)...please let me > know your > opinion. Socialists argue for government subsidy and control of a key part of the marketplace, and offer services at costs often higher than what a competitive market would and at the same time tie the hands of individuals and small companies in the name of equity (lower energy prices). Oil and gas companies receive corporate welfare in tax breaks and subsidies and offer energy now at costs (including energy policy gridlock/government bribery, foreign war, air pollution, global warming, ground water contamination) higher than a competitive (regulated competition) fair (regulated to reflect true costs) efficient free market would. So collectively, preferentially buying from oil, gas and coal companies in the current circumstances would be socialist. > > Hot water districts work in surprisingly large districts so long as > > the density of use is high. There are 100's of heating districts in > > NA in most downtown districts and universities - often old steam > > systems. Now it is much more economic to have 4 pipe systems cold > > and hot with returns. > > > yes, big ones work great...small ones are less viable - it comes down to > recapturing up-front design and infrastructure costs... I'd disagree with the slant or tone. 3 years ago gas prices were 1/2 what they are today. Mortgage payments are better than nat. gas payments because they are predictable so fixed costs are better than variable but recurring costs. The concern about upfront costs have just shifted down because of the high recurring cost of nat. gas. That is my key announcement - it is time to shift thinking opinion/slant based on the financial and technological facts. Times have changed - nat. gas is no longer the all conquering almighty overwhelming competition to green and renewable energy. The emperor (oil, coal, gas industries and government) has no clothes - his energy is not the cheapest (not good for equity) and his advisors are socialists. As to viability, hot water (ground source heat pump, radionic floor heating, solar hotwater etc) is used in single family residential multifamily and commercial buildings today. Linking one house to another makes it like large systems even more economical. > > Here in BC, there is a crazy case where a gas fired power company is > > to locate with in feet of the Canadian border, use Canadian gas, pollute > > Canadian Air, use Canadian powerlines and sell the power to the US. > > They did not offer hotwater to the existing ones that are now > > struggling to heat themselves or allow for acres of greenhouses > > which could have been built. > > too bad...another lost opportunity. Have you discussed this with > BC Hydro? > They have a vested interest in reducing greenhouse gases and, > still being a > provincial utility, may be more open to these opportunities. > Another angle > is approaching the Hot House Tomato people or other large > greenhouse grower > and pointing out the potential savings they could have by using the waste > heat. > > > > > Every power plant, and industrial facility could heat the whole > > neighbourhood. It creates goodwill, clean air and is a good use of > > resources. > > sure it does...it's a good way to maximize the work available in fossil > fuels as we use them up! > > > > > Harold Waldock > > -- > Kelly Finigan, M.Sc. P.Eng. Permaculture Designer > ~ Sustainability consultant & ecological designer ~ > > 744 - 4 Street NW > Calgary, Alberta T2N 1P2 > phone 1-403-283-7270 > > _______________________________________________ > permaculture mailing list > permaculture@... > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture > Harold Waldock
3 Sep 2003 06:29
Re: more on nft's in the orchard, mulch plants and standard rootstocks
the comfrey mulch issue is challenging. there were a variety of responses. i am maybe going to guess that those in warmer areas can develop a comfrey problem and those of us in colder areas may not have it as bad? maybe i am wrong. i know its hard to get rid of and i have worked with it alot.
it seems like Eleagnus spp. would be better off in a silvopasture system where the leaves can contribute no matter where they blow and the tree itself (and its sprouts) can be eaten for fodder by the sheep. i think maybe sea buckthorn and siberian pea shrubs may be best in the orchard. coppiced when they get too high.
No reason you can't coppice Eleagnus and Shepherdia either, or browse Hippophae and pea shrub.
And bringing sheep through an orchard is done by many, too. Carefully, of course!
Trust your experience.
maybe it is a cultivar issue,
There are both species and hybrids; there are many, many types, and identification is usually sketchy.
-Rick
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3 Sep 2003 08:45
Re: nitrogen fixing trees intercropped with fruit and nut trees
> Since alders (black) are common in our wet valley bottoms we don't see > a direct correlation from their presence to our ag output. I would > consider their use in a silvilpasture system as one component and I > imagine goats would browse them yielding goat poop, effective pruning > thus a release of N. I've used them (like nearly anything carbonaceous) > as mulch. They seem to prefer wet feet around here (and they shade the > stream so well) so their use in upland is questionable (feedback?). > Keith Wet foot fond alders are used on rice bunds in some traditional Japanese systems. But I don't quite understand "see a direct correlation from their presence to our ag output" does that mean you don't do ag where alders are? Are there no places in your ag zones where alders might do well? Here where I am I use alders in irrigated places; in non-irrigated areas I use Ceanothus, Eleagnus (though it fruits best with some irrigation) and Cytisus (keep that secret, will ya? imagine someone in the SE US saying they use Kudzu!) ;) I've not done a good trial of real wetland alders (like black or any of the European water lovers) Italian alder seems good here for dryer sites. I also use anything for mulch. But there's mulch and there's mulch. Some is easier to gather, covers better, and gives better results. That's MULCH! Alder is in the MULCH category. -Rick
3 Sep 2003 12:29
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Please can you take me off the list as I will be away for a while and don't want my email to be clogged up. thanks
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4 Sep 2003 14:44
duh...
[You gotta wonder how much they spent to figure this out. mIEKAL] Study: Saving forests best way to cheap, clean water GENEVA (Reuters) Wednesday, September 3, 2003 http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/09/03/forests.water.reut/index.html
5 Sep 2003 17:32
OKC permaculture workshop
The first ever Oklahoma City permaculture workshop will be held Saturday and Sunday, September 26 and 27th, from 9 AM to 5 PM, at the Regional Food Bank (3355 S. Purdue). Jerome Ostenkowski of Rocky Mountain Permaculture (http://www.crmpi.org ) will be the teacher. Saturday's topics include an introduction to permaculture,forest gardening, integrated pest management, and a discussion on creating microclimates, sheet composting, grafting and propagation. Sunday will be about greenhouse design and management, aquaculture, vermiculture and weed management. Permaculture is an approach to land-use design that integrates plants, animals, landscapes, structures and humans to create and construct eco-sytstems that are productive and non-polluting. For a basic overview, go to http://www.crmpi.org , which also has a photo tour of the beautiful permacultured gardens that Jerome is responsible for. To register or for more information, contact Cris Kirby at 405-942-1111 ext 108 ckirby@... or Joe Glosemeyer, 405-399-5126, EagleWalksOK@... .
6 Sep 2003 02:37
Re: OKC permaculture workshop
Oops, the date in my previous post about the OKC permaculture workshop was incorrect. The correct dates are Saturday and Sunday, October 11th and 12th, at the Regional Foodbank, with an introductory presentation Friday evening the 10th at OSU OKC. Contact Chris Kirby to register or for more info. (405) 972-1111 ext. 108 ckirby@... . Robert Waldrop Oklahoma Food Project Join the Oklahoma Food marketing network today! Pay online with an e-check or credit cart! http://www.oklahomafood.org/okfoodservice.htm -----Original Message----- From: Robert Waldrop <rmwj@...> To: permaculture <permaculture@...> Date: Friday, September 05, 2003 10:46 AM Subject: [permaculture] OKC permaculture workshop >The first ever Oklahoma City permaculture workshop will be held >Saturday and Sunday, September 26 and 27th, from 9 AM to 5 PM, at the >Regional Food Bank (3355 S. Purdue). Jerome Ostenkowski of Rocky >Mountain Permaculture (http://www.crmpi.org ) will be the teacher. > >Saturday's topics include an introduction to permaculture,forest >gardening, integrated pest management, and a discussion on creating >microclimates, sheet composting, grafting and propagation. Sunday >will be about greenhouse design and management, aquaculture, >vermiculture and weed management. > >Permaculture is an approach to land-use design that integrates plants, >animals, landscapes, structures and humans to create and construct >eco-sytstems that are productive and non-polluting. For a basic >overview, go to http://www.crmpi.org , which also has a photo tour of >the beautiful permacultured gardens that Jerome is responsible for. > >To register or for more information, contact Cris Kirby at >405-942-1111 ext 108 ckirby@... or Joe Glosemeyer, >405-399-5126, EagleWalksOK@... . > >
6 Sep 2003 22:36
[Fwd: Agroecology International Online Course (27 October - 12 December 2003)]
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Agroecology International Online Course (27 October - 12 December 2003) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:09:35 +0300 From: Christos Vasilikiotis <adriane@...> To: SANET-MG@... Course Announcement. Please feel free to forward to anyone interested. -------------------------------------------------------------- Agroecology International Online Course October 27 - December 12, 2003 A new international online course on the theory and practice of agroecology and its applications to the design of biodiverse and sustainable agroecosystems is being offered this fall. This web-based six-week course is appropriate to agricultural professionals (researchers, extension agents and advanced students). The course will cover the theoretical and practical aspects of sustainable agriculture such as the role of biodiversity in agriculture, ecological pest management, organic soil management and the design of sustainable agricultural systems through crop diversification schemes. COURSE WEB SITE: <http://www.agroeco.org/agroecology> FACULTY: Miguel A Altieri, Ph.D Professor of Agroecology, University of California, Berkeley, USA Christos Vasilikiotis, Ph.D Researcher & Lecturer in Biological Agriculture, Higher Technological Educational Institute of Thessaloniki, Greece Clara I. Nicholls, Ph.D Research Fellow, University of California, Berkeley, USA COURSE FEES: ¤ 350.00 (Farmers and students ¤ 200.00). Fees shown are in euros (¤ ). (See registration form for paying in US Dollars ($) and other payment details) COURSE DATES: October 27 - December 12, 2003 REGISTRATION & PAYMENT DEADLINE: October 24, 2003 To register, please fill out the course registration form which is available from the course web site (<http://www.agroeco.org/agroecology>). For further info send e-mail to christos@... COURSE DESCRIPTION: The course is organized to provide an understanding of the knowledge and methodology necessary to design ecologically based sustainable agricultural systems. The goal of agroecological design is an agroecosystem that mimics the structure and function of local natural ecosystems. It aims for a system with high species diversity and a biologically active soil, one that promotes natural pest control, nutrient recycling and high soil cover to prevent resource losses. During the duration of the course we will cover the theoretical and practical aspects of sustainable agriculture such as the role of biodiversity in agriculture, ecological pest management, organic soil management and the design of sustainable agricultural systems through crop diversification schemes. We will also address the social and economic dimensions of agroecology using case studies from developing and developed countries. The course will consist of six units which will include weekly reading assignments and links to resources that will allow students to explore topics of interest in greater detail. Students will have access to an online library of course material on the course web site that would help them develop a deeper understanding of agroecological design. Throughout the course, students are expected to participate in online discussion groups and explore the various agroecological resources available over the Internet by responding to assigned questions and preparing case studies. Course instructors will facilitate discussions in current issues and encourage students to engage in a productive dialogue. Students who satisfactorily complete all assignments will be awarded a certificate of completion in Agroecology from the Agroecology Program, University of California, Berkeley Participants should have reliable access to the Internet and a working knowledge of the English language. For further info send e-mail to christos@... -- ---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* Christos Vasilikiotis christos@... Thessaloniki, GREECE "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." -Mahatma Gandhi ________________________________________ *** The earth laughs in flowers ***
7 Sep 2003 00:00
Online community composting workshop
FoodShare Toronto is hosting an online workshops on community composting. It's free. How to participate is described in the article below announcing the opportunity. Robert Waldrop, OKC http://www.oklahomafood.org FoodShare presents the next in our series of online workshops- THE REAL DIRT ON COMMUNITY COMPOSTING Online Workshop -- September 8 - 26, 2003 This online workshop will give you the dirt on how to compost in a community setting. We'll cover composting basics and how to get the community involved - whether its your community garden, apartment building, or workplace. Case studies, checklists and worksheets to assess resources, composting readings, links and photos will help you to figure out the best composting system for you and your group. Sign-up prepared to participate in online discussions about what you know about composting and what you'd like to learn from the facilitators and others in the workshop! To pre-register send an email to info@... <mailto:info@...> with "register for The Real Dirt" in the subject line Overview of the online workshop week 1 Theme - why compost? why in a community setting? Readings and Links Assignment/Questions - What composting is going on in your area? municipality? plus Everyone introduces themselves and what stage they are at in setting up a community composting project week 2 Theme - how to compost (vermi, hot cool) Readings and Links Assignment/Questions - worksheet to assess resources week 3 Theme - choosing the right system Readings (case studies) Assignment/Questions - We'll play the community compost game (assign each person a character to role-play and provide them with a community composting situation) Workshop facilitators: Ravenna Barker - Ravenna is a long time volunteer with FoodShare who has a passion for composting. She has been composting for almost as long as she has been talking and loves to help friends and neighbors with their composting quandries. Ravenna is also the author of the upcoming FoodShare composting manual. Mike Nevin - Mike is someone who would almost rather compost than do anything else. He's the key person at FoodShare's Field to Table Centre turning 700 lbs of wet waste into beautiful compost and has be given Food Action Volunteer and Thank You Green Toronto awards for his composting work. Jennifer Reynolds - Jennifer is the Education & Outreach Coordinator at FoodShare. She has a background in organic agriculture, community food security and currently works on FoodShare's Online Learning Centre Project.
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