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Cheyanne & Randy | 1 Oct 2003 01:54
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Re: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet


On Tuesday, Sep 30, 2003, at 17:58 US/Central, Robert J. Matter wrote:
>
> Yeah, pollution is inevetible, so let's all just buy Hummers and  
> forget about it!

I didn't say that.  But driving a car(which I don't) is not the only  
way of polluting and ruining the environment. I think that before we  
start blasting everyone who drives a car we ought to look around at our  
own little world and see what WE are doing that pollutes, and that  
would include things like working for manufacturers that pollute the  
air, selling products that were made in a polluting way, growing  
vegetables with fertilizers and insecticides that leech into the watyer  
supply and harm us.  It seems dangerous when people have a self  
righteous attitude surrounding pollution or any other important  
subject, because it blinds them to what they may be doing that is just  
as harmful.  Many of the "burning issues" of today are the same issues  
that were "burning" 50 years ago, and many people have devoted their  
lives to being conservationists and environmentalists, and has it  
really done that much good?  Have things gotten better environmentally  
in the last 50 years?  I think they may be worse, and it might be more  
helpful if we worked politically to get representation in Washington  
that gives a rats' ass about the environment and would pass the proper  
legislation to protect it, rather than hooraying when someone  
vandalizes another persons' vehicle.  You know, if he has enough money  
to own a hummer, it is fixed by now, and some beady-eyed insurance  
executive somewhere is raising insurance rates for everyone as we type.

Cheyanne
>
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Lenard Segnitz | 1 Oct 2003 02:01
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RE: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The P lanet

There is the notion of "Ecological Footprint"--how much Earth it takes to support a person.  You can
calculate your own footprint at http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp
<http://www.earthday.net/footprint/index.asp> 

Even frugal North Americans use 20 to 30 times more resources than the average citizen of India. 
Conspicuous consumers, SUV drivers among them, are another order of magnatude more wastefull.  There are
a number of us who are trying to live within the means of the Earth by reducing our eco-footprint. 
Conspicuous consumers come along and feel that there is more for them.

SUV (aka FUV-"F*** U Vehicle") is a blatant slap in the face of conservationists.  Automakers may be correct
that they merely supply what the consumers demand (after they ferociously advertise SUVs).  They are a
further slap in the face of all other road users as they use up more space, endanger other users by blocking
their view, and kill others more readily in a collision.  SUVs are a slap in the face of the Western World's
energy future.  America is growing evermore dependant on foreign oil and thus necessitating America's
ruinous foreign policy of fighting wars for oil.

What really disturbs me are advertisements that equate SUV ownership to environmental stewardship.  SUVs
are shown driving over rugged terrain chewing up the country side as they go.  Some semi-anti-SUV people
console themselves that "at least they're being used for what they were designed for".  I say they are a
monstrosity that's being used to rape our wilderness even more rapidly.  SUVs have NO business existing.

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Cheyanne & Randy [mailto:bayoubuddies@...] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:39 PM
To: CarFree@...
Subject: Re: [CF] If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet

Does anyone on the list have employment that does not pollute the 
earth, that uses only natural products in either the manufacture of
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JamesJFitz | 1 Oct 2003 05:29
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Re: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet


On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 "Robert J. Matter" writes:
> Cheyanne & Randy wrote:
> > 
> > Does anyone on the list have employment that does not pollute the
> > earth, that uses only natural products in either the manufacture 
> of
> > other natural products, or the growing of food using only natural
> > fertilizers that will not leech into the water supplies and harm 
> man or
> > animal?  Everything we do in our lives, for the most part, 
> pollutes the
> > earth in one way or another.
> 
> Yeah, pollution is inevetible, so let's all just buy Hummers and 
> forget about it!
> 
> > The vandal may have felt that it was
> > philosophically wrong for Frank Thomas to own a Hummer, but that 
> does
> > not give him the right to vandalize it.  Does it?
> 
> Damn right it does.  Consider it a modern form of tribal 
> ostracization.
> 
> -Bob Matter
> -----------
> "The velorution will not be motorized."
>
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De Clarke | 1 Oct 2003 07:21
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Re: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet

Cheyanne & Randy (bayoubuddies@...) wrote:
> 
> supply and harm us.  It seems dangerous when people have a self  
> righteous attitude surrounding pollution or any other important  
> subject, because it blinds them to what they may be doing that is just  
> as harmful.  

I think it's the "just as" part that's debatable.  few consumer gestures
are as conspicuous, contemptuous, or arrogant as the choice to buy and
drive a Hummer.  it's not a neutral choice.  the advertising campaigns
make it quite clear what "attitude" is being sold with the car -- "Hummers
Always have the Right of Way" in the print ads, the well-known TV ad 
showing the little boy cheating in order to win the soapbox derby, etc.

the Hummer purchaser is making a public statement -- and a thuggish, 
antisocial one -- just as clearly as the innercity gangsta boy sporting 
his colours.

> Many of the "burning issues" of today are the same issues  
> that were "burning" 50 years ago, and many people have devoted their  
> lives to being conservationists and environmentalists, and has it  
> really done that much good?  

> Have things gotten better environmentally  
> in the last 50 years?  I think they may be worse, and it might be more  
> helpful if we worked politically to get representation in Washington  
> that gives a rats' ass about the environment and would pass the proper  
> legislation to protect it, rather than hooraying when someone  
> vandalizes another persons' vehicle.
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Robert J. Matter | 1 Oct 2003 07:53
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Re: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet

De Clarke wrote:
>
> a couple of weeks back, I heard a BBC World Radio story from -- I think --
> Copenhagen, where city authorities were outraged and demanding apologies
> from a major corporation (McDonalds I think, or was it CocaCola?) which
> had graffiti'd many historic buildings and statues in a "guerrilla
> marketing" blitz.  the paint used turned out to be rather difficult and
> expensive to remove.  the city government was rightly upset at the damage
> and expense, and doubly so because a "respectable" entity like a major
> corporation had hired the vandals.  as I recall the company apologised
> publicly and offered to defray at least some of the costs of removing
> the graffiti.  wish I could recall the details better, but I was washing
> dishes and cooking breakfast at the time :-) so was somewhat distracted.
> I do remember cussing out loud at the "noive" of the PR monkeys, and feeling
> very angry that even this negative news coverage had positive PR value for
> the agency that thought up the stunt.

IBM did this a couple years ago with the "Peace, Love, Linux" campaign.  Here's a story about it http://www.marketleap.com/report/ml_report_06.htm.

-Bob Matter
Bracing for CubMania and the hundreds of thousands of fans
driving home drunk from Chicagoland sportsbars in FUVs
------------------------------------------------------
"The whole point of the Hummer is a total --and aggressive-- 
 disregard for what anyone else thinks. The Hummer broadcasts 
 such a blatant "fuck you" to the rest of the world that it
 ought to be considered a new vehicle class, the FUV."
   --Gregg Easterbrook, New Republic

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De Clarke | 1 Oct 2003 08:16
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Post Oil Age: another speculative essay


http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/03-5om/Ehrenfeld.html

some interesting thoughts on the Post Oil Age and how to make a 
less traumatic transition to it.

de

-- 
.............................................................................
:De Clarke, Software Engineer                     UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
:Mail: de@... |  Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid   :
:Web: www.ucolick.org |  of you.			  --Kurt Vonnegut   :
:1024D/B9C9E76E       |   F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD  EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:

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Fitzsimmons, Diane | 1 Oct 2003 15:59
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RE: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The P lanet

I would say I am pretty much a pacifist -- I don't like to say never about
anything, but it has been my experience that most of the bad done in the
world is often done as a response to some other perceived bad done.  I am
opposed to capital punishment.  These feelings are based on my religion, in
which I am instructed -- temple tantrum not withstanding -- to love my
neighbor in the example of the Good Samaritan and to turn the other cheek.

When the war on Iraq was pending, I hung a sign on my window which is still
there: War Is Not the Answer.  My window was egged.  I am not sure if the
vandal was making a statement about my sign or if it was just youthful
hijinks.  But I didn't like being vandalized, and it did not convince me to
take down my sign.  Indeed, it made me that just more adamant to hang it
there.  And it is still there.

My 14yo son has had a bicycle stolen from our front porch while he came
inside to use the bathroom.  It was an expensive, well-built bike, intended
to last through several years of commuting to junior high and high school.
One acquaintance on a progressive-minded list-serv suggested that our bike
was stolen because the thief needed it and that is the price we must be
willing to pay for our conspicuous consumption.

It is not OK to drive a Hummer.  It is not OK to vandalize.  (Besides the
moral ramifications, I feel it is an ineffective protest unless one is
willing to vandalize every such vehicle in your community.)

I think being willing to respond to an injustice with violence puts me in
the same philosophical camp as those who shoot abortion doctors, pilot
passenger planes into buildings and bomb countries out of a hidden agenda
for oil.
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Jym Dyer | 1 Oct 2003 16:03
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Re: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The Planet

> Everything we do in our lives, for the most part, pollutes the
> earth in one way or another.

=v= GHAWWWD, but that's a pointless, tedious argument that's
been regurgitated a million times already.  Yeah, everything we
do pollutes, so anybody who ever says anything about anything
that pollutes needs to be reminded about that.  A million times.

=v= Meanwhile, here in the real world, there are nagging little
details such as, (1) what pollutes the most? and (2) what can we
do about it?  In this case, the answers are pretty clear:  (1)
according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, driving cars
is the #1 polluting thing individuals do, and it gets worse the
bigger they are; and (2) we can at the very minimal least, not
buy Humvees.

> ... but that does not give him the right to vandalize it.

=v= That's as may be, but completely beside the point I was
making, that the author of the article seems to think that
participating in recycling somehow exempts people from having
any responsibility for purchasing planet-wrecking SUVs.
    <_Jym_≥

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David Hansen | 1 Oct 2003 16:56
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RE: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The P lanet

On 1 Oct 2003 at 8:59, Fitzsimmons, Diane wrote:

> I would say I am pretty much a pacifist -- I don't like to say never about
> anything, but it has been my experience that most of the bad done in the
> world is often done as a response to some other perceived bad done.

I think there is a very big difference between fighting to defend 
something; family, country or whatever and taking part in a colonial 
war to grab some assets. Most people will do the former if they feel 
they are in a corner, perhaps because few are saintly enough to do 
otherwise.

Being prepared to take part in a colonial war to seize something is a 
different matter. I note the lies told by the UK and especially the US 
government and also their failure to correct misinformation. Thus many 
of those who invaded Iraq appeared to sincerely believe that they were 
defending their country against aggression. Mass deception on this 
scale is very disturbing.

> It is not OK to drive a Hummer.  It is not OK to vandalize.  (Besides the
> moral ramifications, I feel it is an ineffective protest unless one is
> willing to vandalize every such vehicle in your community.)

It is also likely to stiffen the resolve of those driving such cars.

--
  David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
 I will *always* explain why I revoke a key, unless the UK 
 government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
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Lenard Segnitz | 1 Oct 2003 17:47
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RE: If You Recycle, It's Peachy Fine To Otherwise Kill The P lanet


>Some people and activities pollute more than others. I think that
>Hummers are a symbol of the worst. Vandalize away!
>
>Jim

I should have mentioned a somewhat less morally reprehensible way to make your SUV displeasure known.  Try
bumper stickers, namely the "I'm changing the climate" stickers
http://www.changingtheclimate.com/.  Instructions on applying and removing the stickers are
included on the site.

I feel the bumper stickers don't go far enough.  The campaign only targets SUVs and only one facet of the wrong
that SUV driving causes.  A bumper stickers campaign should target all internal combustion vehicles with
"I'm changing the climate and sending soldiers to die and kill foreigners in another country".

	Lenard Segnitz
	Kamloops, BC

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