1 Jul 03:46 2000

### Re: Proposals

```At 11:10 6/30/00, you wrote:
>Are you familliar with the Travelling Salesman
>problem?
>
>[...]
>
>It has been proven mathematically that this is an
>N*P complete problem, meaning there is no way
>to solve the problem in less time than it takes
>to calculate all possible routes and pick the
>shortest one.

Actually, it's theoretically possible that there exists a clever algorithm which can solve these
problems in polynomial time, i.e. the amount of time required to check a single solution.  This is the
"P=NP?" question, and despite years of searching we have yet to find a conclusive mathematical proof
either way.

It is most people's SUSPICION that NP complete problems can only be solved by brute force, but it would be
incorrect to assume that this is true.  History is full of surprising discoveries like simplex and

-Pete

```
1 Jul 08:59 2000

### Re: Proposals

```Response to Jason Marshall.

"But we're coming to opposite conclusions based on
the same data, which means one (or both) of us are
not grasping the situation."

Or that one or both of us is not communicating well
enough to show that we have the same grasp on the
data.<g>  As I frequently find such failures on my
part, let us assume that only one of us is to blame
here.

"1) Exhaustive searches (searching all possible
suboptimal time."

True if we change the clause "searching all
possible outcomes" to "as if testing all possible
variations of the input".  Remember this is not my
idea, but the one used in logic programming of
which Prolog is an example.  This has been working
20+ years with an approach that began with
rule-based AI systems and has remained the same
since.

You are given an assertion.  You attempt to prove
it false.  For it to be false you must "test" all
possible enumerated variable states of the
assertion.  Before you can do this you must insure
that you have the logical means of performing the
```

1 Jul 10:41 2000

### RE: Proposals

```Response to Billy.

"I'm still having a hard time figuring out what you
mean when you say "an exhaustive true/false testing
process."

If my this time I have not made the meaning clear
in this set of responses, I have to refer you to
any Prolog text or frankly anything which describes
the logic engines of all AI systems.  I have read
them.  I have used them.  I understand what "they"
mean.  I'm only repeating here.  It is no invention
on my part.

"You underestimate the complexity of modern
programs -- a million lines is not even close to
Windows NT's 50 million lines (ugh).  I forget what
Win2K weighed in at."

First off I understand the difference between
complex and complicated, the former dealing with
the interconnections between units and the other
with their absolute number.  I also know that these
units have "names" and that in a manufacturing
sense they exist as "assemblies".  Within them
these assemblies consist of (explicit) references
to other assemblies (who also have a name), control
structures, and primitive operators.

I will go out on a limb and say not one of these
```

2 Jul 19:43 2000

### Re: irc logs

```On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Youlian Troyanov wrote:

>
> Please somebody fix the irc logs.
>
> All the data since June 26th seems to be accumulated in 2000.0626
> and I am not authorized to view the page, IE5 says.
>
> Also the new format (from June 25th for example) is hurting my eyes.
> Too many "[0m"'s.
>
> Thanx,
> Youlian

Go to http://www.tunes.org/~lar1/logs/tunes/
I don't know how to fix the ANSI codes.  Does anyone have a problem with
replacing my log bots with lar1's?

--

--
David Manifold <dem <at> tunes.org> http://bespin.dhs.org/~dem/
This message is placed in the public domain.

```
2 Jul 22:50 2000

### RE: irc logs

```Thanx. Now it's OK.

Youlian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tunes-owner <at> tunes.org [mailto:tunes-owner <at> tunes.org]On Behalf Of
> Tril
> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 1:44 PM
> To: Youlian Troyanov
> Cc: tunes <at> tunes.org
> Subject: Re: irc logs
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Youlian Troyanov wrote:
>
> >
> > Please somebody fix the irc logs.
> >
> > All the data since June 26th seems to be accumulated in 2000.0626
> > and I am not authorized to view the page, IE5 says.
> >
> > Also the new format (from June 25th for example) is hurting my eyes.
> > Too many "[0m"'s.
> >
> > Thanx,
> > Youlian
>
> Go to http://www.tunes.org/~lar1/logs/tunes/
> I don't know how to fix the ANSI codes.  Does anyone have a problem with
> replacing my log bots with lar1's?
```

5 Jul 03:48 2000

### Re: OS

```Baph000 <at> aol.com wrote:
>
> I was browsing thru your website, and the OS section caught my eye.

=)
Thanks for your feedback/response, I rarely get any and I value it when I
do. =)

> In the news section, you mention completely rethinking your OS design
>from the basic 386 pmode stuff to something more like that thing called
>"tunes." What do you mean?

I'm not sure myself. I am only beginning my research on the new track,
which is so different from what I had been doing before. Lets see how I do
in explaining it. =P

Uh... I'm gonna assume that you are familiar with the concept of "Time
Sharing Machines". Okay you have a machine that can run several programs at
once, that is that the universal computer can magically morph itself into a
number of distinct and extremely complex machines simultainiously. The kind
of CPU in use at the time was this huge multi-chip module that cost
something on the order of \$3,000. Around 1970 the video terminal became
practical so you would have like 30 of these hanging off of a machine that
had about the power of a TI-85. The problem is that when these people, who
were programming in BASIC, Fortran, and APL, and most notably assembly were
hacking on their programs on this machine, they would crash it mess up
everybody else's work. =P IBM then came up with a machine, I forget which
one, (too lazy to look it up), It was perfect. The hardware was such that a
simple program could command it to partition itself down into completely
independant "virtual machines" that could be created and deleted at will.
```

5 Jul 18:31 2000

### Optimization, the gist of it

```After a brief flurry there came a momentary pause.
Whether that meant I answered things satisfactory
or not, the pause occurred at an appropriate time,
the Fourth of July weekend.  In celebration of this
brief respite I thought I might offer a
composition, a tympany in four movements in C
major.

The first movement entitled "SQL Revisited" deals
with optimization as it pertains to modern database
usage.  Once we have laid it to rest as it were we
enter the second movement entitled "The
Experiential Use of Brute Force Intelligently
Applied" or "E tu Brutus?".  Here we will lay to
rest the issue of code optimization and whether
available methods fall within the range of the
possible (and solvable) or the impossible.

This leads naturally to the third movement entitled
"Other Modern Miracles of Our Time".  Here we add
to the roster of functional programming (Lisp
variants, Forth, and OO) the additional entries of
logic programming, APL2, and PL/I.  Treating these
new entries as a Rule of Three we meld them into a
Rule of One.

This in turn leads us to the fourth movement
entitled "Operational Fare" or if you prefer "Fare
Revisited".  Here we look the requirements for the
Tunes HLL and transforming them into
```

7 Jul 05:35 2000

### Quick Note... Updated the Arrow-on-Squeak code

```I recalled recently that we discussed improvements to the theory of Arrow
back in October, and that I didn't get around to implementing the ideas.
The new set of code is in the same location:

http://www.tunes.org/~water/abstract-arrows.st

This is compatible with at least every version of Squeak back to 2.0. It
would probably work with very minor modifications in any other Smalltalk
distribution (GNU Smalltalk comes to mind). Anyway, the specifics of the
updates are that the CAR and CDR graphs are supported, as well as an
application method in the graph classes.

Todo's:
1) Make an application (ApplyGraph?) graph class (this is a design pattern,
but I don't recall presently its name).
2) Determine a basic system for quantification: Using graph application to
follow one path of several, or to follow all paths "concurrently", or to
return a graph of the resulting arrows (this was discussed earlier, but not
to a definite conclusion).
3) Develop a basic system for infinitary / intensional meaning. This could
be in the form of some boolean logic graphs or operator graphs that
simulated the lambda calculus with some concurrency primitives.

I know this is a distraction from my work on Slate, but any progress in
this area counts for both systems at this point. At any rate, all of these
code additions should be child classes of Graph, using the usual OO design
methods to keep things simple and understandable. (And yes, I acknowledge
that this marks me as a perfectionist ;).

Thanks for the interest,
```

7 Jul 05:40 2000

### Re: Quick Note... Updated the Arrow-on-Squeak code

```At 08:35 PM 7/6/00 -0700, you wrote:
>I recalled recently that we discussed improvements to the theory of Arrow
>back in October, and that I didn't get around to implementing the ideas.
>The new set of code is in the same location:
>
>http://www.tunes.org/~water/abstract-arrows.st

That URL should be:
http://www.tunes.org/~water/Abstract-Arrows.st

I apologize for the inconvenience.
~

```
9 Jul 02:50 2000

### Schools for OS/PL/DS Research

```
Hello everyone. Some of you might remember me from long ago from
the Moose project and early Tunes days. (If so, you have a better
memory than I do.) I've been on and off the list in lurk mode for
a while, to a large extent because I was busy with other things
and I didn't feel like I had the background to contribute. However,
I'm now looking to head back to school to work on a Ph.D., with a
focus on the application of programming language technologies to
building systems software and distributed systems. Of course, if
I manage to pull that off, I'd be insane not to be more active
here.  For now, though, I'm still looking for schools which would
have good support for these areas of research, and I'm looking for
suggestions. CMU, with their Fox project, is at the top of my list,
but I'd feel a lot better with a couple other places to look. If
anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate them.
Thanks.

Gary D. Duzan

```

Gmane