On Feb 28, 2007, at 11:30 AM, mmalc crawford wrote: > Its just exposing the hypocrisy tat apparently we already all knew > about... Obviously, some of us don't know about it. _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
Iraqi civilians killed last year by ISLAMIC Terrorists16,791Iraqi civilians killed collaterally last year in incidents involving Americans(and Islamic Terrorists) 225
Don't believe in targeting civilians my ass."Seven per cent believe that the events of 9/11 were “completely justified”. "
Lets go to bloody borders and see where the attacks are happening..Indonesia, Philippines <http://chromatism.net/bloodyborders/ob1905.htm>Chechnya, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria, Russia http://chromatism.net/bloodyborders/ob1402.htmDagestan, Iran, Iraq, Jordan-Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey http://chromatism.net/bloodyborders/ob1403.htm
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Quoting Chris Gehlker <canyonrat@...>: > This poll should provide food for thought. > <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/are-the-worlds-muslims- > m_b_42268.html> > > Gandhi's response when asked what H thought of Western civilization > "I think it would be a good idea" The same Ghandi who presided over a caste system that made the worst excesses of apartheid seem inconsequential in comparison? That smug, self-righteous racist religious bigot? That Ghandi? G -- -- grh@... http://www.grh-photo.com/ "First things first, but not necessarily in that order" -- The Doctor, "Doctor Who" _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On 1-Mar-2007, at 11:06, guy hammond wrote: > The same Ghandi who presided over a caste system that made the > worst excesses > of apartheid seem inconsequential in comparison? That smug, self- > righteous > racist religious bigot? That Ghandi? "If... castes and sub-castes as we know them disappear - as they should - we should unhesitatingly accord the highest importance to marriages between Ati-Shudras and caste-Hindus." Ghandi, 1945 -- -- You too will get old. And when you do you'll fantasize that when you were young prices where reasonable, politicians were noble, and children respected their elders. _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On Feb 28, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Chris Gehlker wrote: >> Its just exposing the hypocrisy tat apparently we already all knew >> about... > Obviously, some of us don't know about it. But you assured us earlier that we did... mmalc _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On 2 Mar 2007, at 00:20, LuKreme wrote: > On 1-Mar-2007, at 11:06, guy hammond wrote: >> The same Ghandi who presided over a caste system that made the >> worst excesses >> of apartheid seem inconsequential in comparison? That smug, self- >> righteous >> racist religious bigot? That Ghandi? > > "If... castes and sub-castes as we know them disappear - as they > should - we should unhesitatingly accord the highest importance to > marriages between Ati-Shudras and caste-Hindus." Ghandi, 1945 Lewis, Don't feed the troll... M _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:26 PM, mmalc crawford wrote: > > On Feb 28, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Chris Gehlker wrote: > >>> Its just exposing the hypocrisy tat apparently we already all >>> knew about... >> Obviously, some of us don't know about it. > > But you assured us earlier that we did... I think I was asserting that we all know there are Islamic extremists. Apparently, some of us *still* don't get that they are a small minority. I think that it is very hard for some people to deal with the notion that those who wish them evil aren't organized into easily identified national or religious groups.[1] I was genuinely surprised at the high incidence of 'terrorist' thinking among Americans. That was the news in the report for me. I also think that many people in Islamic countries may hate Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, for reasons that either have nothing to do with religion or are merely rationalized as religious. I spent some time the weekend before last talking to a bigot who hates Hispanics[2]. He is very disturbed by seeing Spanish billboards, hearing Spanish on the street and even smelling Mexican cooking. If this man can be driven to such distraction by such moderate changes in his society in response to Hispanic immigration, think of what people in traditional Arabic cultures must feel as their cultures are literally submerged in Western/Global society. [1] Or maybe there are whole countries where the majority does hate Americans on religious grounds. The article itself pointed out that the authorities in Wahhabist countries don't allow surveys of Moslem attitudes. [2] A form of bigotry that is apparently PC these days. -- Vegetarians eat Vegetables, Humanitarians frighten me _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On Mar 2, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Chris Gehlker wrote: > On Mar 1, 2007, at 11:26 PM, mmalc crawford wrote: > >> >> On Feb 28, 2007, at 4:20 PM, Chris Gehlker wrote: >> >>>> Its just exposing the hypocrisy tat apparently we already all >>>> knew about... >>> Obviously, some of us don't know about it. >> >> But you assured us earlier that we did... > > I think I was asserting that we all know there are Islamic > extremists. Apparently, some of us *still* don't get that they are > a small minority. I think that it is very hard for some people to > deal with the notion that those who wish them evil aren't organized > into easily identified national or religious groups.[1] Here are the pew research numbers for the broader question. 2005 is the latest survey of this type I can find that actually documents it's data and accuracy. <http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the- muslim-world> Number of Muslims that believe that violence against civilian targets *IS* justified "often/sometimes" + "rarely" (as opposed to "never" The question: "Violence against civilian targets IS justified" Jordan: 88% Lebanon: 58% Pakistan: 44% Indonesia: 38% Turkey: 20% << Turkey is usually billed as a MODERATE nation and 20% of the population believes that violence against civilians is sometimes justified. Morocco: 18% Look at the numbers for suicide bombings against civilians are justified. (Of those that think violence against civilians is ever justified.) Morocco: 81% believe that they are justified.. Jordan: 61% Lebanon: 62% Pakistan: 50% Indonesia: 50% Turkey:47% So. 88% of the people in Jordan think it's ok to attack civilians and 61% of those folks think it's ok to use suicide bombing to do so.. That is sick and there is no way to put a pretty face on it. Ballen's report doesn't list his sources, his questions, his data, sample size or anything,.. All we can tell is that it is one year newer than pew so there is something way wrong here, either pew got it wrong or Ballen's group, unless you believe that the Muslim attitude swung from 81% "for" to 93% against in the course of one year.. (using Jordan) Part of the problem may simply be the perception of terms. Some Muslims only count Muslims as civilians and anyone as members of Dar al-Harb (house of war) so, by definition they are not civilians and don't count. IMHO, the Muslim world seems to split largely between those who tacitly support Islamic terror and those who do nothing about it. What is the ratio of Muslims targeting civilians for terror attacks to Christians doing the same? 500 to 1? it's greater than that.. Regardless, it is a damn large number. How many non Muslims think it is ok to target civilians vs how many non Muslims ARE targeting civilians? There is the disparity. > > I was genuinely surprised at the high incidence of 'terrorist' > thinking among Americans. That was the news in the report for me. Another part of the problem is that we don't know how the question was framed. Example. If you asked me "Is violence against civilians EVER justified" I'd say yes. (qualified as "when they are supporting the war effort of their country in a material way) I'd be thinking of the necessity of bombing the German ball bearing plants and munitions factories in WWII. Manned by civilians, for sure, but very necessary targets to stop the production of tanks. Does that count? I don't know. If the question was posed as "Is it ever justified to randomly target civilians" I'd say no, not ever. That leads back to my original point which is what they 'say' does not jibe at all with what they 'do' and conversely what the Americans may 'think' does not jibe with what they do either. (that is, they are NOT blowing up tube stations, trains, school buses, and civilians at markets...) > > I also think that many people in Islamic countries may hate > Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, for reasons > that either have nothing to do with religion or are merely > rationalized as religious. I spent some time the weekend before > last talking to a bigot who hates Hispanics[2]. He is very > disturbed by seeing Spanish billboards, hearing Spanish on the > street and even smelling Mexican cooking. If this man can be driven > to such distraction by such moderate changes in his society in > response to Hispanic immigration, think of what people in > traditional Arabic cultures must feel as their cultures are > literally submerged in Western/Global society. I understand that they must feel under attack by Western culture. I literally can't imagine how as pre-enlightenment culture must feel when confronted with a largely secular and democratic culture, and one that doesn't put up with authoritarian religious leadership much at all. They haven't kept up with the rest of the world, and every time they encounter something Western, it is brought home just how backward their culture has become. Where the rub is is that this pre-enlightenment culture believes that everyone else must convert, submit or die.. Sooner or later, we are going to have to convince them that 'none of the above' is another possible answer and that their continued survival will depend on their willingness to accept the fact that we are not going to embrace Islam and Sharia law. Ever. In that sense, I think that a major clash is inevitable. If we made a real move to energy independence then we could starve them of money and a lot of this problem would go away without much bloodshed. I'm not holding my breath though. =c= _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On 2-Mar-2007, at 02:39, Matt Johnston wrote: > On 2 Mar 2007, at 00:20, LuKreme wrote: >> On 1-Mar-2007, at 11:06, guy hammond wrote: >>> The same Ghandi who presided over a caste system that made the >>> worst excesses >>> of apartheid seem inconsequential in comparison? That smug, self- >>> righteous >>> racist religious bigot? That Ghandi? >> >> "If... castes and sub-castes as we know them disappear - as they >> should - we should unhesitatingly accord the highest importance to >> marriages between Ati-Shudras and caste-Hindus." Ghandi, 1945 > > Lewis, > > Don't feed the troll... I didn't realise who I was replying to. I thought I had a mail.app filter to mark his messages read so that didn't happen anymore... -- -- If there's a bustle in your hedgerow don't be alarmed now. _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
On Mar 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Chris Gehlker wrote: > I was genuinely surprised at the high incidence of 'terrorist' > thinking among Americans. That was the news in the report for me. > Oh, OK, so if someone else posts something you already knew about then it's clearly something we all should know about, whereas if it's new to you the rest of us need to be informed. Good, glad that's cleared up. > to a bigot who hates Hispanics[2] > [2] A form of bigotry that is apparently PC these days. > That's news to me, but then I supposed I'm uninformed. BTW: In answer to your rather condescending question earlier, yes, I do know a number of Southerners. My former in-laws are primarily Southerners. One of my brothers lives in South Carolina. When I was working as a trainer, some of the most genteel people I met were from the Redstone Rocket Arsenal. At the same time, however, Huntsville was where I received the most openly hostile reaction simply for walking into a store. A question for you: how often have you been subject to hostility and physically jostled simply for "being gay"? mmalc _______________________________________________ OSX-Nutters mailing list | OSX-Nutters@... http://www.tit-wank.com/mailman/listinfo/osx-nutters Join us in #ramblingwaffles on irc.23x.net
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