Nikola M. | 17 Jul 09:42 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman

On 06/27/11 05:54, Bryan Horstmann-Allen wrote:
> On Jun 26, 2011, at 23:45, Gordon Ross <gordon.w.ross <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would there still be a way to browse archives with listbox?
>> As long as we don't lose that, I see no problem with it.
> Yes, functionality is 1:1. (Refraining from .05:1 snark.)
>
> Listbox is an ESP. Deliverability, fallbacks, multi-tenancy, been around for ~15 years.
>
> Listbox's sister company is Pobox.com. 

What is actually wrong with mailman?
Why should one want to move self-hosted in-house service backed by open
source software it can control and enhance , to some company-owned
closed proprietary SERVICE that is off-site and uncontrolled?

And again, what is wrong with mailman?
My first thought was - maybe there is some other open source mailing
list software that he is proposing.  But I see no proposition of such
kind. Except someone works/ed at that service company that is proposed
to migrate to.

If we know exactly what is wrong with mailman and why mailing lists
hosting should not stay in-house and inside project-controlled space,
maybe that way mailman could be changed to work better.

It is not only question in mailman versus some other app. (what other
app is alternative for in-house mailing lists that you have in mind?)
It is question of willingness to put main channel of the project
communication in the hands of some greedy closed company that they could
(Continue reading)

Bryan Horstmann-Allen | 17 Jul 11:39 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman

+------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| On 2011-07-17 09:42:05, Nikola M. wrote:
| 
| What is actually wrong with mailman?

It's annoying to admin. You can't search it. It loses messages. That last part
is kind of important. It's one more thing we have to deal with.

| Why should one want to move self-hosted in-house service backed by open
| source software it can control and enhance , to some company-owned
| closed proprietary SERVICE that is off-site and uncontrolled?

You answered your own question, but...

Because then we (the ops staff, the guys actually doing the work here?) don't
have to deal with mailman breaking, we don't have to deal with deliverability,
we don't have to deal with a snowflake email service.

| If we know exactly what is wrong with mailman and why mailing lists
| hosting should not stay in-house and inside project-controlled space,
| maybe that way mailman could be changed to work better.

Your assumption that open source software is superior for a purpose simply
because the code is available is grossly inaccurate. Especially when it comes
to mailing list software.

Unless you're offering to fix mailman, in which case I look forward to seeing
your fork on github.

| It is not only question in mailman versus some other app. (what other
(Continue reading)

Bryan Horstmann-Allen | 17 Jul 12:10 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman


> I guess we shouldn't use the resources graciously offered by Joyent or
> EveryCity either, using your logic.

Or Circonus, who were kind enough to comp us an account so we wouldn't have to manage Nagios (thanks again, Theo!).
--

-- 
bdha
Andre van Eyssen | 17 Jul 13:23 2011

Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011, Nikola M. wrote:

> What is actually wrong with mailman?
> Why should one want to move self-hosted in-house service backed by open
> source software it can control and enhance , to some company-owned
> closed proprietary SERVICE that is off-site and uncontrolled?

Because mailman isn't great and causes problems that are hard to diagnose, 
harder to fix and cause a great deal of complaints from users. These 
aren't specific to our lists and are common complaints from mailman sites.

The entire infra team reviewed the listbox.com option and are satisfied 
with their service, including the ability to pull data back out if we 
should ever need to self-host again.

> If we know exactly what is wrong with mailman and why mailing lists
> hosting should not stay in-house and inside project-controlled space,
> maybe that way mailman could be changed to work better.

Quite apart from the core software complaints about mailman, administering 
mail infrastructure takes time. Every day, thousands of messages of spam 
gets pumped into our lists and action is required to clear this out. 
Running quality production mail infrastructure consumes time, resources 
and isn't free. The administration team would prefer to dedicate their 
time to improving core services for getting the job done, not re-inventing 
the wheel just to handle list services.

Running project infrastructure is a thankless job. An extremely thankless 
job. It consumes a lot of time and when things are done properly, the 
result is often invisible to the users.
(Continue reading)

Matt Lewandowsky | 17 Jul 19:12 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman

I'd like to summarize my two cents on this matter, since I've had to repeatedly look into open-source mailing list management over the years. Mailman is, for most uses, the best thing going for lists. However, the various issues which lie at the very core of the product make me tend to recommend the much-reviled Majordomo in preference, generally. No amount of open-source advocacy (well-intentioned, misguided, or otherwise) is going to make any of the currently-available options as "pure open-source" less sucky. As I hinted above, "fixing" the problems with Mailman will require some fundamental changes which would, effectively, make it a different product. Illumos isn't out to reinvent a wheel that is unrelated to its direction, especially when a solution that solves the problem is being graciously provided. (The same is true of many other open-source projects which end up using less-than-"purely open source" solutions for some of their infrastructure.) If you're willing to fix/fork Mailman, there will surely be MANY very happy users. Illumos may even end up considering your version at some point. However, no one has been able to solve this ongoing problem. So, rather than hope for a miracle, taking the provided option is the only sensible approach. And if you're not aware of its myriad shortcomings, perhaps you should try running some fairly active lists with it for a while. ;) That is likely all I'll say on this matter. --Matt Sent from my HTC Touch Pro2 on the Now Network from Sprint®.


-----Original Message-----
From: Nikola M.
Sent: 7/17/2011 7:42:05 AM
To: Bryan Horstmann-Allen
Cc: discuss <at> lists.illumos.org
Subject: Re: [illumos-Discuss] Proposed migration off Mailman
<!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt; padding-left: 4pt; border-left: #800000 2px solid; } -->
On 06/27/11 05:54, Bryan Horstmann-Allen wrote:
> On Jun 26, 2011, at 23:45, Gordon Ross <gordon.w.ross <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would there still be a way to browse archives with listbox?
>> As long as we don't lose that, I see no problem with it.
> Yes, functionality is 1:1. (Refraining from .05:1 snark.)
>
> Listbox is an ESP. Deliverability, fallbacks, multi-tenancy, been around for ~15 years.
>
> Listbox's sister company is Pobox.com.

What is actually wrong with mailman?
Why should one want to move self-hosted in-house service backed by open
source software it can control and enhance , to some company-owned
closed proprietary SERVICE that is off-site and uncontrolled?

And again, what is wrong with mailman?
My first thought was - maybe there is some other open source mailing
list software that he is proposing.  But I see no proposition of such
kind. Except someone works/ed at that service company that is proposed
to migrate to.

If we know exactly what is wrong with mailman and why mailing lists
hosting should not stay in-house and inside project-controlled space,
maybe that way mailman could be changed to work better.

It is not only question in mailman versus some other app. (what other
app is alternative for in-house mailing lists that you have in mind?)
It is question of willingness to put main channel of the project
communication in the hands of some greedy closed company that they could
close it any day they like.
Not for and not against.
Yust explain your motives not to be self-hosted.

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http://lists.illumos.org/m/listinfo/discuss
Gordon Ross | 21 Jul 21:21 2011
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[illumos-Discuss] SSD vs "hybrid" drive - any advice?

I'm looking to upgrade the disk in a high-end laptop (so called
"desktop replacement" type).
I use it for development work, runing OpenIndiana (native) with lots
of ZFS data sets.

These "hybrid" drives look kind of interesting, i.e. for about $100,
one can get:
  Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591
And then for about $400 one can get an 250GB SSD, such as:
  Crucial M4 CT256M4SSD2 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State
Drive (SSD)
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443

Anyone have experience with either one?  (good or bad)

Opinions whether the lower capacity and higher cost of
the SSD is justified in terms of performance for things
like software builds, etc?

Thanks,
Gordon
Erik Trimble | 22 Jul 00:23 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] SSD vs "hybrid" drive - any advice?

On Thu, 2011-07-21 at 15:21 -0400, Gordon Ross wrote:
> I'm looking to upgrade the disk in a high-end laptop (so called
> "desktop replacement" type).
> I use it for development work, runing OpenIndiana (native) with lots
> of ZFS data sets.
> 
> These "hybrid" drives look kind of interesting, i.e. for about $100,
> one can get:
>   Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
> with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive
>   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591
> And then for about $400 one can get an 250GB SSD, such as:
>   Crucial M4 CT256M4SSD2 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State
> Drive (SSD)
>   http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443
> 
> Anyone have experience with either one?  (good or bad)
> 
> Opinions whether the lower capacity and higher cost of
> the SSD is justified in terms of performance for things
> like software builds, etc?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gordon

Gordon,

You'd be better off asking this question on zfs-discuss <at> opensolaris.org,
where most of the ZFS folks still hang out.

IIRC, the last time we talked about experiences with hybrid drives, it
was pretty clear they were doing solely read-caching with the NAND, so
ZFS would derive no benefit from using one as ZIL vs a standard HD.  The
NAND is completely internal to the HD, and thus, there is no way for ZFS
to take specific advantage of it in any form. 

Write speeds of SSDs aren't any faster than that of Hard drives in terms
of throughput; however, they can generally handle an order of magnitude
greater IOPs, even on writes, so compiling should be noticeably faster
(screamingly faster reading, somewhat faster writing, of lots of small
files). In your scenario (compiling), I don't see the hybrid HD's cache
being particularly useful vs a standard HD - you're doing a large number
of reads across a very large number of files, so I would expect that the
hybrid's NAND cache experiences a rather high rate of eviction, which
reduces its utility greatly.  And, there's no write benefit, so
compiling output to the hybrid will be just as slow as a normal HD.

I'd go with the SSD. Generally, the newer SanForce2 or 3-based internal
controllers seem to be a good bet on any SSD, so look around the Net to
see if the particular SSD you're interested in uses a SanForce2/3
integrated chip. 

--

-- 
Erik Trimble
Java Platform Group - Infrastructure
Mailstop:  usca22-317
Phone:  x67195
Santa Clara, CA
Timezone: US/Pacific (UTC-0800)
Andre van Eyssen | 22 Jul 01:22 2011

Re: [illumos-Discuss] SSD vs "hybrid" drive - any advice?

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011, Gordon Ross wrote:

> These "hybrid" drives look kind of interesting, i.e. for about $100,
> one can get:
>  Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
> with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive
>  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591
> And then for about $400 one can get an 250GB SSD, such as:
>  Crucial M4 CT256M4SSD2 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State
> Drive (SSD)
>  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443
>
> Anyone have experience with either one?  (good or bad)

I have a Momentus XT in one of my laptops. It makes a big difference, but 
that's mainly because of the workload on that machine - it runs Windows. I 
wouldn't expect to see the same clear performance improvement on a 
development machine. Basically, if you have a lot of static data that gets 
read regularly, it'll move into the SSD cache. If things aren't static, it 
can't really offer much.

Ideal for making Starcraft 2 fire up quickly, though!

--

-- 
Andre van Eyssen.
mail: andre <at> purplecow.org          jabber: andre <at> interact.purplecow.org
purplecow.org: UNIX for the masses http://www2.purplecow.org
purplecow.org: PCOWpix             http://pix.purplecow.org
Blake Irvin | 22 Jul 02:52 2011
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Re: [illumos-Discuss] SSD vs "hybrid" drive - any advice?

My hybrid sucks.  Bad caching algorithms, I think.  I have the Seagate.

in haste,
Blake

On Jul 21, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Gordon Ross <gordon.w.ross <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm looking to upgrade the disk in a high-end laptop (so called
> "desktop replacement" type).
> I use it for development work, runing OpenIndiana (native) with lots
> of ZFS data sets.
> 
> These "hybrid" drives look kind of interesting, i.e. for about $100,
> one can get:
>  Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
> with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive
>  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591
> And then for about $400 one can get an 250GB SSD, such as:
>  Crucial M4 CT256M4SSD2 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State
> Drive (SSD)
>  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443
> 
> Anyone have experience with either one?  (good or bad)
> 
> Opinions whether the lower capacity and higher cost of
> the SSD is justified in terms of performance for things
> like software builds, etc?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gordon
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss <at> lists.illumos.org
> http://lists.illumos.org/m/listinfo/discuss
Alan Chalmers | 22 Jul 03:50 2011
Picon

Re: [illumos-Discuss] SSD vs "hybrid" drive - any advice?

On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 5:21 AM, Gordon Ross <gordon.w.ross <at> gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking to upgrade the disk in a high-end laptop (so called
"desktop replacement" type).
I use it for development work, runing OpenIndiana (native) with lots
of ZFS data sets.

These "hybrid" drives look kind of interesting, i.e. for about $100,
one can get:
 Seagate Momentus XT ST95005620AS 500GB 7200 RPM 2.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s
with NCQ Solid State Hybrid Drive
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591
And then for about $400 one can get an 250GB SSD, such as:
 Crucial M4 CT256M4SSD2 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State
Drive (SSD)
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148443

Anyone have experience with either one?  (good or bad)

Opinions whether the lower capacity and higher cost of
the SSD is justified in terms of performance for things
like software builds, etc?

Thanks,
Gordon

_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
Discuss <at> lists.illumos.org
http://lists.illumos.org/m/listinfo/discuss

Gordon,

I doubt you will see anything useful from a ZFS view point as you can't setup the flash component as a ZIL.

I use one in my Macbook Pro , but for my use case is see only margin performance improvement. It boots faster great it you spend you day booting boot test's. Common use apps load faster but again I don't spend my day closing and opening my browser or terminal.

For me personally I wouldn't last my money if I were to do it again, for what that's worth.

cheers

alan
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Gmane