Jim Breen | 1 Aug 04:11 2005
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Re: Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions

[Gerard Meijssen ([Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:]
>> For the Ultimate Wiktionary I have documented some of the design 
>> criteria. It can be found here: 
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage 
>> The Data design can be found here: 
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design

I have added some comments to the Discussion pages of those two.

>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed. 

Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.

>> This 
>> means that all incorrect spelling will be amended or deleted. As 
>> Ultimate Wiktionary is a database, it does not cater for things like 
>> redirects. I urge you to have a look at both the design criteria and the 
>> design itself because this is the time when it is relatively easy to 
>> make changes. Once Erik starts coding the UW database, having finished 
>> Wikidata and the GEMET implementation, the moment has passed us by.

Indeed.

Jim

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Jim Breen                                http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/
Clayton School of Information Technology,               Tel: +61 3 9905 9554
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Muke Tever | 3 Aug 00:41 2005
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Re: Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions

Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@...> wrote:
>>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>>>
>>> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>>> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>>> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>>>
>> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
>> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
>> and ue or ss instead of ß. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch
>> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has
>> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it
>> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to
>> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They
>> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't
>> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when
>> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to
>> should be found.
>
> Hoi,
> Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss
> Pellings.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#Only_correct_spelling

What about languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards?

	*Muke!
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Sabine Cretella | 3 Aug 01:28 2005
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languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards

I take this theme up since it is not only a Ultimate Wiktionary problem 
... it is an actual problem for many minor languages.

When there are several possibilities to write a word within a language 
these should be treated on an equal level. No-one may ever discriminate 
one of the possible spellings. The important thing is that if these 
different spellings can be attributed to a ceratain "branch" it should 
be done. Those who cannot be classified just receive the general 
language classification. Gerard will be able to explain this better I 
suppose,  but bein on his way to wikimania I am not so sure if he has 
time to explain.

Anyway: I am a translator for EN-DE and IT-DE now we have a pretty weird 
situation with German. There was a spelling reform that in a first place 
was adopted by all federal states and this year in autumn the new 
spelling should have become the only valid one... now in Germany these 
decisions are not taken centrally by the federal government in Berlin, 
but by the ministries for education and culture of the single federal 
states. Some of these federal states, among them Bavaria, will not 
accept the deadline of this year in autumn, but accept old and new 
writing. It is a funny situation for my job, since it could mean that a 
customer tells you that he wants the old spelling or the new spelling 
depending on where he lives and what he prefers or in most cases they 
will not even bother how things are written, since many don't even know 
the new spelling rules ... it is really a strange situation: imagine 
someone in Bavaria translates a text - legally he/she may use whatever 
ortography he/she likes - if the customer lives in a state where the old 
ortography is not valid anymore this can lead to a bad surprise.

But let's talk about minor languages. We have some difficulties on the 
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Jim Breen | 3 Aug 01:42 2005
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Re: Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions

[Muke Tever (Re: [Wiktionary-l] Ultimate Wiktionary and design decisions) writes:]
>> Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@...> wrote:
>> >>>>> One crucial decision is that only correct spelling is allowed.
>> >>>
>> JB> Fine, as long as you are going to cater for multiple correct spellings.
>> JB> If you don't it's going to be difficult for some languages, e.g.,
>> JB> English, and impossible for others, e.g.. Japanese.
>> >>>
>> >> Many languages have different accepted spellings for the same word.
>> >> Japanese with the three character sets. German with umlauts and ae, oe
>> >> and ue or ss instead of ß. Esperanto accepts cx and ch for ^c. Dutch
>> >> had at one time a preferred and a progressive spelling and English has
>> >> some variants depending on the locality it is spoken. I'm sure it
>> >> doesn't end there and it is something a multilingual dictionary has to
>> >> cater for. Adding common misspellings shouldn't be all that hard. They
>> >> simply need a possibility to be marked as such. The misspellings don't
>> >> exactly have to be shown either (except maybe on demand), but when
>> >> somebody uses them to search the database, the entries they point to
>> >> should be found.
>> >
>> > Have a look at the latest design it caters for having some Miss
>> > Pellings.
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_decisions_on_its_usage#Only_correct_spelling

Yes, it mention "incorrect spelling", but is silent on the matter of
valid spelling varinats.

>> What about languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards?

Indeed.
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Jim Breen | 3 Aug 02:20 2005
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Re: languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards

Greetings,

[Sabine Cretella ([Wiktionary-l] languages that do not have "correct spelling"	standards) writes:]
>> I take this theme up since it is not only a Ultimate Wiktionary problem 
>> ... it is an actual problem for many minor languages.
>> 
>> When there are several possibilities to write a word within a language 
>> these should be treated on an equal level. No-one may ever discriminate 
>> one of the possible spellings. 

I think this goes to the heart of the issue, and I totally agree with
you.

>> The important thing is that if these 
>> different spellings can be attributed to a ceratain "branch" it should 
>> be done. Those who cannot be classified just receive the general 
>> language classification. 

Hear, hear.

>> Anyway: I am a translator for EN-DE and IT-DE now we have a pretty weird 
>> situation with German. There was a spelling reform that in a first place 
>> was adopted by all federal states and this year in autumn the new 
>> spelling should have become the only valid one... now in Germany these 
>> decisions are not taken centrally by the federal government in Berlin, 
>> but by the ministries for education and culture of the single federal 
>> states. Some of these federal states, among them Bavaria, will not 
>> accept the deadline of this year in autumn, but accept old and new 
>> writing. It is a funny situation for my job, since it could mean that a 
>> customer tells you that he wants the old spelling or the new spelling 
(Continue reading)

Heiko Evermann | 3 Aug 15:27 2005
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Re: languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards

Hi Sabine, hi everyone,
> But let's talk about minor languages. We have some difficulties on the 
> nds wiktionary - people think that the only way to write correct is 
> following the Sass ortography. Some days ago I had a longer telephone 
> conversation with one of the directors of the Institut für 
> niederdeutsche Sprache (institute for nds) - he explained that there are 
> at least six different acknowledged ways of writing nds and if we go to 
> details 200 to 400 ways of writing (including also dictionaries from 
> around 1920 etc.) can be defined - so accepting only one way of writing 
> is a discrimination to my opinion. They all need to be accepted - the 
> important thing is that there is a distinction from one to the other. 
> How we could achieve this - in the actual wiktionary signing all non 
> classified words just with nds. Words that can be classified receive 
> nds-ABC, nds-DEF, nds-SASS, nds-xyz. So not only the single term is to 
> be classified, but also the definition (if possible) - if it is not 
> classified there's simply no reference to a certain class.
This is not a correct representation of the discussion that we had.
1) we said want all Low Saxon entries to be classified as -nds-
2) we said that there should be a possibility to list dialect and spelling
variations within one entry. But for that we need a structure that does not
break your automatic im-/export to other wiktionarys. Using nds-sass as a
main entry will not do it. We want to have a list of frequent other
spellings below the nds heading. As far as I remember, this problem has been
mentioned in our talk page, but so far there has not been a proposal from
your side.
I would like to see something like
Article: xy
-nds-
* Meaning
* Meaning
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Sabine Cretella | 3 Aug 17:32 2005
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Re: languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards

I did not talk about our (e-mail) conversation - I talked about a 
discussion page on wiktionary where from one to the other day I found 
the note that for definitions Sass ortography has to be used and that 
without common consensus knowing that there were at least two people who 
defend all possibilities of writing.
http://nds.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Sprache_der_Beitr%C3%A4ge
Here Sass is called "Norm" a norm is a "standard", but Sass is no 
standard, but one way of more possible writings.

The discussion we had privately has nothing to do with that and I'd 
never take any private discussion to public.

Sorry, I now have to care about wikimania and translations :-)

Ciao, Sabine

Heiko Evermann wrote:

>Hi Sabine, hi everyone,
>  
>
>>But let's talk about minor languages. We have some difficulties on the 
>>nds wiktionary - people think that the only way to write correct is 
>>following the Sass ortography. Some days ago I had a longer telephone 
>>conversation with one of the directors of the Institut für 
>>niederdeutsche Sprache (institute for nds) - he explained that there are 
>>at least six different acknowledged ways of writing nds and if we go to 
>>details 200 to 400 ways of writing (including also dictionaries from 
>>around 1920 etc.) can be defined - so accepting only one way of writing 
>>is a discrimination to my opinion. They all need to be accepted - the 
(Continue reading)

Sabine Cretella | 3 Aug 18:09 2005
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Re: languages that do not have "correct spelling" standards


>spelling. Another thing is that the original author of this list is not
>available (as you said). 
>

Where ever did I say this? (please send me my mail where I said "the 
author of this glossary is not available for discussion - maybe I said 
something like it could be difficult to contact him") The availability 
of this author is on the internet itself (you can find it where you 
found the list (and copied lists) of words), but I find it rather weird 
to include him into a never ending discussion now (as much as I 
understood from other people there are similar problems with wikipedia - 
and it is a never ending discussion) for which I don't have any time at 
this stage. Since he did not only donate nds-de to us I really don't 
want to start criticising him as he did a lot, also for other languages.

I for myself wait first for facts from the Insitut for Niederdeutsche 
Sprache (institute for nds) and I wrote that in my last (private) e-mail 
(I mean that I am waiting for their answer). Further to that I will also 
wait for some answers of university professors that deal with nds in 
their courses. (and this might take some time) I am not going to throw 
any opinions into public without having a basis as at this stage it is 
not the case doing it. It just leads to impossible situations.

As I already said I don't have time now to answer - I did not take our 
conversations public and I am not going to follow up any more private 
discussions in public - I am goin to give the contents of the answers I 
receive on nds wiktionary where only people interested in nds can read 
them (or they can ask for having a copy).

(Continue reading)

Sabine Cretella | 6 Aug 11:22 2005
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Wikimania - Spanish - we need someone for proofreading in Spanish

Hi, we need someone for proofreading of some Spanish texts for Wikimania 
- is anyone here who could help us?

Thanks,

Sabine

	

	
		
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Gerard Meijssen | 10 Aug 19:01 2005
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[Fwd: Wikimania and changes to the datadesign of Ultimate Wiktionary]

Hoi,

Wikimania, the Wikimedia conference in Frankfurt, was really productive. 
There were several cool ideas that led to changes to the datadesign. Of 
particular importance was the inclusion of sign languages. To enable 
this I have been working with Ascander and Wolfgang. After I came home I 
have been working it into the design and changing things even further 
because of conversations with Sabine. For the linguists among us; a 
lemma is a combination of one Word with one Meaning.

The design can be found here 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wiktionary_data_design including 
some motivations, explanations.

Thanks,
   GerardM

Gmane