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Ray Saintonge | 1 Sep 2004 02:33

Re: Adding a botanical glossary and first letter capitalisation]

Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> I am happy to read that things have been discussed with the 
> developpers. However, I find it hard to find what is discussed as the 
> link that is referred to is an already old thread on en:wiktionary. As 
> a consequence it is not clear and obvious what has been discussed. 

Agreed, but we're all responsible for that, myself included.  The right 
thing for me to do would be to refactor my own old comments into my new 
ones. :-)

> An other problem is that as this is not an en:wiktionary only issue, 
> meta would be a more obvious choise to host this discussion. 

Not really.  Many of us who are interested in the Wiktionaries may not 
check into Meta that often.  I would because I'm familiar with the 
issue, but I guarantee that there will be some who will complain that 
they were not warned about the change.  Although I passively support the 
change on the other languages my vote there would mean as much as the 
votes by IP numbers that now appear in English.  It comes down to a 
matter of process.  In what languages would the knowledgeable people 
generally oppose this?  Probably the only languages where this might not 
be such a big issue are those that do not use capitals in the first place,

> To me, there are two issues.
> *Having correct content, this can be better assured without 
> capitalisation of the first character.
> *How to find stuff, this may mean that the search may have to be blind 
> for capitalisation.
>
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Gerard Meijssen | 1 Sep 2004 09:47
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[Fwd: Re: Adding a botanical glossary and first letter capitalisation]]

Muke Tever wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:47:07 +0200, Gerard Meijssen 
> <gerardm@...> wrote:
>
>> I think the second option would be a nice to have while the first is a
>> must have. I am convinced there are errors in nl:wiktionary because I
>> just do not see the difference between some capital and undercase
>> letters, the difference does not register. I can live with the second
>> coming life after the first.
>
>
> What kind of fonts are you using that use the same glyphs for 
> majuscules and minuscules?
>
>
>     *Muke!

I had to look up the word "majuscule" (it is not in en:wiktionary but in 
en:wikipedia :)  ) to know it means hoofdletter. Anyway, there is 
nothing wrong with my fonts they do present all characters properly. 
However, the problem is with me; I do not know these characters. I do 
not have these characters easily available to me and the result is wrong 
articles. Only compulive capitalised words should have a capital all the 
others should not. This is where mistakes creep in.

Thanks,
  Gerard
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Gerard Meijssen | 1 Sep 2004 09:48
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[Fwd: Re: Adding a botanical glossary and first letter capitalisation]]

Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> I am happy to read that things have been discussed with the 
>> developpers. However, I find it hard to find what is discussed as the 
>> link that is referred to is an already old thread on en:wiktionary. 
>> As a consequence it is not clear and obvious what has been discussed. 
>
>
> Agreed, but we're all responsible for that, myself included.  The 
> right thing for me to do would be to refactor my own old comments into 
> my new ones. :-)
>
>> An other problem is that as this is not an en:wiktionary only issue, 
>> meta would be a more obvious choise to host this discussion. 
>
>
> Not really.  Many of us who are interested in the Wiktionaries may not 
> check into Meta that often.  I would because I'm familiar with the 
> issue, but I guarantee that there will be some who will complain that 
> they were not warned about the change.  Although I passively support 
> the change on the other languages my vote there would mean as much as 
> the votes by IP numbers that now appear in English.  It comes down to 
> a matter of process.  In what languages would the knowledgeable people 
> generally oppose this?  Probably the only languages where this might 
> not be such a big issue are those that do not use capitals in the 
> first place,
>
>> To me, there are two issues.
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Gerard Meijssen | 1 Sep 2004 11:30
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Re: intro to - thematic glossaries in Wictionary

Stefan Jensen wrote:

>Hi Gerard,
>I have subscribed to the Wictionary mailing list but am not in depth following your discussion. I am just
getting the idea that you are adding a botanical glossary.
>I have earlier on made an offer to add GEMET into Wictionary (5200 term aroun environemnt in 20+
languages). It is jsut that I cannot physically do it ...
>I take the freedom to forward you a mail >I sent earlier to you guys bur got only little reply on
>
>greetings
>
>Stefan
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Stefan Jensen
>Project Manager
>Reporting processes and tools
>European Environment Agency
>TEL +45 33367232
>GSM +45 23683659
><http://eionet.eu.int>
><http://eea.eu.int>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>
Thanks for your mail. I am relatively recent on this list, I do not 
remember to have seen your mail before.
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Stefan Jensen | 1 Sep 2004 15:23

GEMET in Wiktionary

Dear Gerard,

I am happy for this offer and like to share some issues with colleagues of mine involved.
I have actually promoted the idea of including GEMET into "the Wicki world" in an international meeting on
environmental terminologies in April in Geneva http://ecoinfo.eionet.eu.int/ (see ECOTERM April
workshop) and got very positive feedback from the colleagues.

I paste this message to the follwing colleagues active around Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic
Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ...
- Bernad Vatant at Mondeca www.mondeca.com 
- Thomas Bandholtz at http://www.bandholtz.info/index_en.html 
- Alistair Miles http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/ (You find here links to GEMET in
SKOS-RDF - which I guess is the terminolgy format of the sematic web)
- Miruna Badescu http://www.finsiel.ro/ is currently building a web service which allows machines to
pick up GEMET content (1st  version available later in September) 
- Soren Roug at EEA who has integrated some GEMET contenet into
http://cr.eionet.eu.int/search_expert.jsp - a multipurpose RDF harvester

Please let us have an exchange on what to do next

kind regards

Stefan

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen [mailto:gerardm@...]
Sent: 01 September 2004 11:30
To: Stefan Jensen; wiktionary-l@...; Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
Subject: Re: intro to - thematic glossaries in Wictionary
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Muke Tever | 1 Sep 2004 15:32
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Re: [Fwd: Re: Adding a botanical glossary and first letter capitalisation]]

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:47:41 +0200, Gerard Meijssen
<gerardm@...m> wrote:
> However, the problem is with me; I do not know these characters. I do
> not have these characters easily available to me and the result is wrong
> articles. Only compulive capitalised words should have a capital all the
> others should not. This is where mistakes creep in.

I should think mistakes creep in more likely by working with material one is unable to read?

	*Muke!
--

-- 
website:     http://frath.net/
LiveJournal: http://kohath.livejournal.com/
deviantArt:  http://kohath.deviantart.com/

FrathWiki, a conlang and conculture wiki:
http://wiki.frath.net/
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Gerard Meijssen | 1 Sep 2004 18:35
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GEMET and Wikipedia

Gemet is the "GEneral Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus". This 
thesaurus is maintained by the European Environment Agency. It contains 
a 5200 + glossary with translations of the words to 20+ languages and 
descriptions in a few. The EEA wants to have this information in a wiki 
format, the data is open content.

Mr Stefan Jensen, the project manager did sent me a mail as I am 
preparing to upload a botanical glossary into wiktionary (I said so on 
the wiktionary list). As the GEMET data is already on-line on the 
internet, and much better structured than the data that I have, I would 
first break my teeth on this one and then progress to my own glossary.

However, I received a mail which shows how much he would appreciate 
cooperation; all kinds of people who have expertise in area's like  
Semantic Web, Ontologies, Thesaury, Topic Maps, XML, RDF, OASIS ... have 
had my mail forwarded. I have created an article on Meta [[GEneral 
Multilingual Environmental Thesaurus]]. I copied the mail to the talk page.

My plans are simple I want to upload this stuff into nl:Wiktionary. I 
also plan to tag them with a [[Categorie:GEMET]]. When I have been 
succesfull, I will also be able to upload it to other wiktionaries. When 
somebody beats me to it, I will only be pleased.

As I have seen many a time on Wikitech stuff about XML etc, it might be 
a good idea to synchronise what GEMET does and what we do. So please 
discuss this preferably on Meta, or on the lists. I have no good idea 
about how difficult this may prove to be.. Again, information on META.

Thanks,
   GerardM
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Sabine Cretella | 1 Sep 2004 19:26
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Re: GEMET and Wikipedia

Hi, I'd like to answer and at the same time to forward this message to 
several people involved with "glossary creation and maintenance" as well 
as interested user groups.

As some of you already know I'll have a similar task with uploading 
"colours" in as many languages as possible to the Italian wiktionary 
(list is still under completion) - at the same time I am trying to 
create other thematic lists to be translated by colleagues and then 
uploaded to wiktionary and used in the wsi-glossary project as well as 
the Embedded DICTionary PROJect.

Now I know the GEMET as a very valuable source for translators (I myself 
use it quite often) - so its release in the OpenContent would be a 
wonderful achievement and not only for Wiktionary. So I would kindly 
invite the people of other lists and direct contacts to join this 
project and combine forces.

The meta page Gerard is talking about can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GEneral_Multilingual_Environmental_Thesaurus

If someone of you needs further explanation on how to add comments to 
the link mentioned above and let us know what he/she can do, please just 
ask. Maintain such a huge glossary in so many languages is a lot of work 
and every helping hand (don't forget that there are many simple jobs as 
well) is needed.

I know, not many of us are convinced about OpenSource and OpenContent, 
but most of us use it every day sometimes without knowing about how much 
work is behind.
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Stefan Jensen | 2 Sep 2004 08:51

RE: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia

Good morning Sabine and everybody,
Great to see more people joining into the communication. I am not a frequent user of the Wicki discussion
tools which Gerhard proposes to use for this but I'll try to move things over to there. (And I see Bernard is
already using it).
Some points:
a) I understand Gerard wants to start with the Dutch (NL) language part of it. Please make sure you do not
loose the link to the (English) definitions. In fact, maybe English - as the nucleus - shall go in first
b) If my technical knowhow is carrying me far enough, I would consider to use XML/RDF as technical transfer
media and SKOS as the "description model". I think this "streamlining" could be beneficial since the
community does not have to handle various technical solutions in parallel. But this might not work with
the technology in Wiki - other folks have to decide on that
c) Sabine is supporting the open content approach and correctly refers to the reluctancy of other
initiative to go along the same way. Why I opt for open content is (besides the fact I like the philosophy in
general a lot and we folks in the environment domain are well advised to not sit on our stuff (data,
terminologies etc.) if we want to make some impact) is the maintenance issue: While we have an overall good
quality standard in GEMET, there are problems here and there - sharing through Wiki would allow for others
(users) to comment and edit the stuff. Also they can add and link to other terminolgies (glossaries,
thesaury ... whatsoever). I am aware that this can lead to chaos but my experience with Wictionary is that
it (sometimes surpriseing for me) provides quality content without getting into this trouble
d) Mabe it is you neccessary somebody (Gerard?) starts with something (NL/EN), picking up the content from
the GEMET area http://www.eionet.eu.int/gemet in the SKOS format (see also SWAD-Europe for reference)
e) By the way there are goodies availbale like definitions in Russian and Bulgarian ... there is also an
initiative under way to get the stuff in Chinese ... 

>>> I now paste thsi mail into the META discussion area and hoep this is a beneficial move ...

a sunny day from Copenhagen
stefan

-----Original Message-----
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ALBatro | 2 Sep 2004 09:33
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Re: [Wiktionary-l] GEMET and Wikipedia - The Pizza Connection ; o)...

Stefan Jensen wrote:

>Good morning Sabine and everybody,
>Great to see more people joining into the communication. I am not a frequent user of the Wicki discussion
tools which Gerhard proposes to use for this but I'll try to move things over to there. (And I see Bernard is
already using it).
>
Dear Stefan,

really nice to "cybermeet" ;o) you and the others in this Wiki/EEA ring...
The merit or the blame - you'll see later... - is to be put on that 
German Vesuvio ;o) who's definitely SabiNet...
We recently got in touch in a list of discussion - LANGIT - I quitted 
very fast, for some reasons, after launching a project, RL - RAPTVS 
LINGVÆ, which she was the only replier to.

As soon as Sabine has got some time to explain to me where and how to 
effectively start to work in/for Wiki world with the support of EEA 
(even if at present I'm already doing/studying really several things, 
and would  need paid work, I'll be glad to play actually my part, also 
owing to its being a good reference on the whole and it will let me learn.

My mother tongue is Italian, which I studied also at the university; 
moreover I worked as a professional proofreader and editor for ten years 
and am an author.

As for Chinese at least - I can't assure you nothing - but I'm in high 
touch with some Chinese linguists (two women) who know English and are 
interested in Italian too. They have a sort of translation agency on the 
net and I created and moderate an  Itlaian subforum on their Chinese
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