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Andrew Whitworth | 1 Apr 2008 01:05
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Re: A question for the Wikimania jury

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Aphaia <aphaia@...> wrote:
>  Criteria was on meta for months and you had have a lot of time but
>  definitely less than any jury member to spare the time to give your
>  consideration and feedback to its talk page.

This may be, but people are still asking questions about how this
decision was reached, what criteria the Jury used and what those
criteria mean. And regardless of what the page says at meta, nobody
really knows what the Jury members were thinking when they voted, or
what they discussed amongst themselves in private. Then, when the
decision has been made, there seems to be no venue presented and no
tolerance displayed for people who have questions, comments, or
concerns about it.

Having a talk page on meta hardly means that the process is an "open" one.

--Andrew Whitworth

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Aphaia | 1 Apr 2008 01:12
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Re: A question for the Wikimania jury

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Andrew Whitworth
<wknight8111@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Aphaia <aphaia@...> wrote:
>  Then, when the
>  decision has been made, there seems to be no venue presented and no
>  tolerance displayed for people who have questions, comments, or
>  concerns about it.

Anyone could attend the open meeting on the IRC where jury and others
made a question.
For people who had no IRC access either regularly or occasionally,
they could submit questions to meta bidding pages. Each venues had
their page on meta and welcomed questions from anyone.

>  Having a talk page on meta hardly means that the process is an "open" one.

I will disagree.

>  --Andrew Whitworth
>
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>  Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

--

-- 
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
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Austin Hair | 1 Apr 2008 01:18
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Re: A question for the Wikimania jury

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Andrew Whitworth
<wknight8111@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Majorly <axel9891@...> wrote:
>  >  I don't have any issues with the members of the jury, but others might, and
>  >  there's currently no real way to bring up problems.
>
>  I agree with Majorly on this, and maybe this is the root reason why
>  people seem to be so disgruntled with these processes. We've got this
>  closed and secretive selection where a small group are making these
>  sweeping decisions. The "community" (however you choose to define
>  that) isn't given any input in this matter whatsoever. We don't get to
>  help in the decision-making process (except for submitting bids which
>  are judged on unknown criteria), and we don't get to express problems
>  in any orderly way after the fact.

The deliberations may be private, but the process certainly isn't
secretive, and it's not at all the case that others from outside the
jury have no input.

The timeline, with a step-by-step description of the process, can be
found at <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2009>.  There were
two public IRC meetings, and the Q&A pages on meta were open to
anyone, not just members of the jury.  We did see more public
participation with the 2008 bid process, but this was coming straight
out of the 2007 event, when Wikimania was on everyone's minds and
interest was a lot greater.  I'm not aware of any kind of conscious
effort to close out the community for the 2009 selection.

The criteria are very well known, and posted at
<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2009/Judging_criteria>.
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effe iets anders | 1 Apr 2008 01:46
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Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board

Dear all,

 I am very glad that the proposal for establishing a provisional
volunteer council received such a lot support both on this list as in
private conversations.

 Since the request for candidates for the Provisional Volunteer
Council, I received quite some nominations. However, unfortunately I
have to admit that there were no (willing) candidates from some
important regions amongst these. As I have to work with the candidates
that were nominated, I was therefore unable to candidate someone from
these regions.

 I did try however, to get at least a few projects represented, and
also a more technical person (from the developers side of the
volunteer spectrum). Please find my final suggestion list below in the
proposal (attached again for reference - only one minor spelling and
layout changes).

 Please note that this is a *proposed* resolution, and not yet accepted.

 I know this list is not very long. And some area's are still missing
in representation. However, I trust this group wholehearely, and
suppose that they will make sure as a first thing to get at least one
or more projects better represented (such as Wikinews or Wikiversity
which have a very different character).

 If you have major concerns with respect to this list of candidates,
please send them to this list or communicate them to the Board (I am
not sure which route is the best for that though). I will make no
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Geoffrey Plourde | 1 Apr 2008 01:51
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Re: A question for the Wikimania jury

Never say never ;) There is nothing barring Am-wiki. 

----- Original Message ----
From: Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin@...>
To: foundation-l@...
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 12:57:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A question for the Wikimania jury

foundation-l-request@... wrote:
> If you're interested in establishing a more regular North American or
> Europe-wide conference the for years when we don't have Wikimania in the
> area, then great! We can certainly use more local organization of this
> sort in the US, and at the Europe-wide level in addition to the numerous
> country-wide groups there.
>
> - -- brion vibber
>  
Well that would be nice but would WMF pay for all these conferences? Who 
would organize them other than one person? This isn't a task for one or 
two people much less someone with no experience in doing so.

Last I heard the "Conference of The America's" is not happening. Why? 
Not too sure why but if I cannot afford a trip to Buenos Aires or Egypt 
I certainly cannot afford to make my own conference.

Jason Safoutin (DragonFire1024)

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Geoffrey Plourde | 1 Apr 2008 02:15
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Re: A question for the Wikimania jury

Well maybe a candid discussion about the further development of Wikimania is in order. 

----- Original Message ----
From: Aphaia <aphaia@...>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@...>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:08:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A question for the Wikimania jury

As an Asian living in East Asia, I daresay I sure was not chosen to
mimic US arrogance.

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:01 AM, Jason Safoutin
<jason.safoutin@...> wrote:
>
>
>  foundation-l-request@... wrote:
>
> > Additionally, "we" (as in "the community") did not choose who made up the
>  > jury. I don't know who chose it, why they were chosen, but for a group to
>  > act on "our" behalf in such a big way (big in my view) it surely deserves
>  > more accountability. Maybe something for another thread.
>  > --
>  > Alex (Majorly)
>  Good point. Who did choose the jury? If they are supposed to be working
>  in "our" interests, then someone needs to tell them that they are not
>  doing their job(s).
>
>
>
>  Jason Safoutin (DragonFire1024)
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Samuel Klein | 1 Apr 2008 02:52
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Re: A Wikimania for everyone?

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Nathan <nawrich@...> wrote:

> Practically everything related to Wikimedia produces a lot of debate.

True; and debate can be productive.  We should harness that interest and
energy into constructive work to lay the groundwork for joyful events, and
discussion about what makes a successful gathering.

> Even the composition of the jury has been challenged - though no one has
> objected to Buenos Aires directly (although one writer mentioned that it
> is
> equivalently far away as Antarctica for him). I think we should thank the
> jury for the work they do and refrain from challenging the decisions using
> arguments that do not include a critical analysis of the bids and process.

Suggesting that the process rely more on questions, assessments, and
discussion from the community at large is certainly relevant.  There were
not many discussions about criteria or questions from the wider community
during the bid process; and many more voices tend to speak up after each
Wikimania and after a selection.  The basic interest in improving the
process is there, but it isn't being realized; if people who care about a
topic don't use the right forum to discuss it, the discussion space is not
truly open.  (Perhaps publicity or presentation could be better targeted so
that the community feels the shared ownership of review and selection.)

The limit on Wikimanias is financial and logistical - as (and if) the
> Foundation earns more funds it will become feasible to hold more Wikimania
> events - although at that point we need to have a discussion about the
> utility of these events in relation to the goals of the Foundation. All
> other efforts being funded sufficiently I think it would be great to have
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Dan Rosenthal | 1 Apr 2008 03:17
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Re: Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board

I have serious concerns with Durova being considered as a  
representative of the en.wikipedia community. Perhaps you missed the  
massive drama over the past months that resulted in her losing her  
administrator status. I do not feel that anyone who has so recently  
felt one of the most significant backlashes the community has ever  
given as a unified body, should be selected to speak for that  
community. That's not just a slap in the face; it's a kick in the  
balls at the same time.

-Dan
On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:46 PM, effe iets anders wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I am very glad that the proposal for establishing a provisional
> volunteer council received such a lot support both on this list as in
> private conversations.
>
> Since the request for candidates for the Provisional Volunteer
> Council, I received quite some nominations. However, unfortunately I
> have to admit that there were no (willing) candidates from some
> important regions amongst these. As I have to work with the candidates
> that were nominated, I was therefore unable to candidate someone from
> these regions.
>
> I did try however, to get at least a few projects represented, and
> also a more technical person (from the developers side of the
> volunteer spectrum). Please find my final suggestion list below in the
> proposal (attached again for reference - only one minor spelling and
> layout changes).
(Continue reading)

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Geoffrey Plourde | 1 Apr 2008 03:25
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Re: Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board

look at her work on commons. It seems fairly exemplary.

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester@...>
To: effeietsanders@...; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@...>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:17:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board

I have serious concerns with Durova being considered as a  
representative of the en.wikipedia community. Perhaps you missed the  
massive drama over the past months that resulted in her losing her  
administrator status. I do not feel that anyone who has so recently  
felt one of the most significant backlashes the community has ever  
given as a unified body, should be selected to speak for that  
community. That's not just a slap in the face; it's a kick in the  
balls at the same time.

-Dan
On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:46 PM, effe iets anders wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I am very glad that the proposal for establishing a provisional
> volunteer council received such a lot support both on this list as in
> private conversations.
>
> Since the request for candidates for the Provisional Volunteer
> Council, I received quite some nominations. However, unfortunately I
> have to admit that there were no (willing) candidates from some
> important regions amongst these. As I have to work with the candidates
(Continue reading)

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Andrew Whitworth | 1 Apr 2008 03:33
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Re: Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board

She's also been doing some excellent, drama-free work on Wikibooks. I
wouldn't judge a Wikimedian's worth by the way the Wikipedia community
feels towards them, since I've always found Wikipedia to be a little
bit dramatic and irrational. Of course as an outsider, I'm sure I only
ever hear the bad news.

--Andrew Whitworth

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@...> wrote:
> look at her work on commons. It seems fairly exemplary.
>
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message ----
>  From: Dan Rosenthal <swatjester@...>
>  To: effeietsanders@...; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@...>
>  Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 6:17:43 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Provisional Volunteer Council - proposal sent to the Board
>
>  I have serious concerns with Durova being considered as a
>  representative of the en.wikipedia community. Perhaps you missed the
>  massive drama over the past months that resulted in her losing her
>  administrator status. I do not feel that anyone who has so recently
>  felt one of the most significant backlashes the community has ever
>  given as a unified body, should be selected to speak for that
>  community. That's not just a slap in the face; it's a kick in the
>  balls at the same time.
>
(Continue reading)

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