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hillgentleman | 1 Jun 07:27
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Re: Wikimedia brand survey open

> A branding decision that, in the long run, very much improves the
> perception of our projects,

It is doubtful.  Were Wikipedia would ever need to be rebranded as
wikibook-encyclopaedia, it would only send a message that wikipedia is
not comfortable in its own skins.

 and thereby increases their chances of
> broad success, may, in typical communities, be an unpopular decision,
> because people have become accustomed to the existing brands and even
> take a little personal pride in their familiarity with them all.

That is true.  However, your proposal is, from the beginning,
manufactured towards short-term marketing.  Your marketing plan has
never considered that a name is related to  two fundamentals in a wiki
- the content and the community.
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hillgentleman | 1 Jun 08:29
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Re: Wikimedia brand survey open

>
> A branding decision that, in the long run, very much improves the
> perception of our projects, and thereby increases their chances of
> broad success, may, in typical communities, be an unpopular decision,
> because people have become accustomed to the existing brands and even
> take a little personal pride in their familiarity with them all. The
> fact that this present Board could make such a decision even if it was
> going to be unpopular seems like a feature to me rather than a bug.

The reason why the board may trump the community is that the board
should be a stabilising force of the community.  In a wiki process, it
is the community that moves itself forward - not a proactive
individual board member.

Board members should seek to enlighten the community by thoughtful
discussions.

Please do not repeatedly accuse community members of "have become
accustomed to the existing brands" and in the same time refuse to
listen to legitimate concerns and doubts. That is not helpful.
:)
H.
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Ivan Lanin | 1 Jun 10:15
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Inclusion of Wikibooks

Dear list members,

My name is Ivan Lanin, and I'm a bureaucrat from Indonesian Wikipedia.
We're currently cleaning up our encyclopedia articles. Some of the
articles regarding cities or areas in Indonesia that we have contains
too much details (such as lists of good restaurants, addresses of
public government office, etc.) to be contained in an encylopedia
article. At least that what most of us think.

There have been a discussion in local "village pump"
[[w:id:Wikipedia:Warung Kopi]] discussing this matter. Initially the
suggestion was to set up Indonesian Wikitravel and move the content
there, under the false assumption that Wikitravel is one of the
Foundation projects. That idea was withdrawn when people found out
that Wikitravel is not part of WMF's projects.

Instead, we were discussion of creating a "travel" book inside
Indonesian Wikibooks. We haven't seen any other wikibooks using this,
neither we see any other wikibooks holds information about travel. We
understand that Wikibooks are for "free textbooks contents", but we
think if we format the content just like a book, we could make it a
"traveler's book".

May I ask what the list members think about this? Do any of you have
the same experience as we have. Please share.

Thank you
--

-- 
Ivan Lanin
(Continue reading)

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GerardM | 1 Jun 10:25
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Re: Inclusion of Wikibooks

Hoi,
There are more travel wikis than just Wiki travel, there are more wikis that
would be a good place to host this type of information. The Wikimedia
Foundation has a specific aim for its projects and indeed this type of
information does not belong in a Wikipedia. However it does not belong in
Wikibooks either.

By refusing this type of information in a wiki outside of the Wikimedia
Foundation, you allow for this type of information to be deleted at all.
That is not a great idea.

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 6/1/07, Ivan Lanin <ivanlanin@...> wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> My name is Ivan Lanin, and I'm a bureaucrat from Indonesian Wikipedia.
> We're currently cleaning up our encyclopedia articles. Some of the
> articles regarding cities or areas in Indonesia that we have contains
> too much details (such as lists of good restaurants, addresses of
> public government office, etc.) to be contained in an encylopedia
> article. At least that what most of us think.
>
> There have been a discussion in local "village pump"
> [[w:id:Wikipedia:Warung Kopi]] discussing this matter. Initially the
> suggestion was to set up Indonesian Wikitravel and move the content
> there, under the false assumption that Wikitravel is one of the
> Foundation projects. That idea was withdrawn when people found out
(Continue reading)

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Azdiyy | 1 Jun 11:19

Re: Meta Ban

Platonides wrote:
> You have been told that meta admins are usually admins on other wikis.
> What you might haven't understood is that by having experience on
> conflicts and trollings, they'll know about "admin complaints".
>
> Very similar as how they always protect [[m:The Wrong Version]], admins
> are always "a fascist biased communist group which want to rule the wiki
> under their dictatorship".
>
> Not having an ar: admin explaining their version; we only have yours
> which will obviously PV.
> Anyway, your actions clearly fall on "Do not disrupt Wikipedia", so your
> meta ban is probably right. If you feel infinite is too much time, what
> about lowering it to several months?
>

when you're responsible for cleaning the mess you may well behave like
"a fascist group" without knowing it. trolling, on theother hand, is
more fun.
if it takes several months to set up a new list or decide where this
ban may be discussed (if at all), why not wait? it'll save meta
bandwidth, and allow ar admins back in full gear - no scary trolls
around. no questions need answers if they were a troll's. they must be
right if meta has banned me, or so think they.
Azdiyy
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Guillaume Paumier | 1 Jun 13:16
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Re: Wikimedia brand survey open

Hello,

On 6/1/07, Anthony <wikimail <at> inbox.org> wrote:
>
> On 5/31/07, Erik Moeller <erik <at> wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> > It is not decided that anything will change at all, and if it will,
> > the parameters of that change are very much up to debate. This survey
> > is an informal project I have initiated to collect some data for
> > further discussion.
>
> > It is worth considering, when it comes to majority decisions on such
> > matter, that a group can be its own worst enemy:
> > http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
>
> Right, and it was precisely that essay that I had in mind when saying
> this.
> To give an example, I would suggest that Wikipedians (who aren't involved
> in
> Wikinews) shouldn't be involved in a discussion as to whether or not to
> change the name of Wikinews, because they are not at all part of the core
> group of the Wikinews project.  That would be as silly as letting Chinese
> students who don't feel that Tibet is a country vote down the creation of
> a
> Usenet news group for discussing Tibetan culture.

For once, I partly agree with Anthony (« une fois n'est pas coutume », as we
say in French). Although forbidding Wikipedians to take part in discussions
is a bad solution, this situation should be taken in account when analysing
the results of this survey. Many Wikipedians who don't edit other Wikimedia
(Continue reading)

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Robert Horning | 1 Jun 13:22
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Re: Inclusion of Wikibooks

Ivan Lanin wrote:
> Dear list members,
>
> My name is Ivan Lanin, and I'm a bureaucrat from Indonesian Wikipedia.
> We're currently cleaning up our encyclopedia articles. Some of the
> articles regarding cities or areas in Indonesia that we have contains
> too much details (such as lists of good restaurants, addresses of
> public government office, etc.) to be contained in an encylopedia
> article. At least that what most of us think.
>
> There have been a discussion in local "village pump"
> [[w:id:Wikipedia:Warung Kopi]] discussing this matter. Initially the
> suggestion was to set up Indonesian Wikitravel and move the content
> there, under the false assumption that Wikitravel is one of the
> Foundation projects. That idea was withdrawn when people found out
> that Wikitravel is not part of WMF's projects.
>
> Instead, we were discussion of creating a "travel" book inside
> Indonesian Wikibooks. We haven't seen any other wikibooks using this,
> neither we see any other wikibooks holds information about travel. We
> understand that Wikibooks are for "free textbooks contents", but we
> think if we format the content just like a book, we could make it a
> "traveler's book".
>
> May I ask what the list members think about this? Do any of you have
> the same experience as we have. Please share.
>
> Thank you
>   
I would note that this issue has come up on English Wikibooks as well,
(Continue reading)

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Ivan Lanin | 1 Jun 13:50
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Re: Inclusion of Wikibooks

On 6/1/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen@...> wrote:
> However it does not belong in Wikibooks either.
> By refusing this type of information in a wiki outside of the Wikimedia
> Foundation, you allow for this type of information to be deleted at all.
> That is not a great idea.

I do agree that this type of information should not be deleted. What
I'm trying to seek now is whether we can still maintain it *within*
Wikimedia projects. And Wikibooks is the most suitable place, at least
that's what we think.

Regards,
--

-- 
Ivan Lanin - [[meta:User:IvanLanin]]
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Ivan Lanin | 1 Jun 13:58
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Re: Inclusion of Wikibooks

On 6/1/07, Robert Horning <robert_horning@...> wrote:

> ... even though we don't openly seek or advertise development of
> content like this, at least by having a seperate bookshelf of content
> like this.  London is currently on the "Miscellenaous" bookshelf (a
> cataloging term for finding content on en.wikibooks):
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Miscellaneous_bookshelf

Ah, that's why I can't find it in the first place :) Thanks for pointing it out.

> The "Travel Guide" category clearly is something that has been thought
> up here as something that would be legitimate for additional Wikibooks.
> Certainly the Wikitravel website has pulled most of those who might want
> to write content like this, even though it is not a Wikimedia website.
> I think this is why it may be harder to find travel guide information on
> Wikibooks or why more projects like this havn't been started before.

There. Since there's nothing like Indonesian Wikitravel (for example)
yet, I guess the case is a little different for us. As long as we
stick to the "free textbooks contents" context and could attract
people to contribute, we can use Wikibooks, can't we?

> I hope that helps.

It sure helps. A lot :) Thanks.

--

-- 
Ivan Lanin - [[meta:User:IvanLanin]]
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David Gerard | 1 Jun 15:49
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Fwd: [ORG-discuss] US makes Korea eliminate fair use

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Owen Blacker <owen@...>
Date: 01-Jun-2007 14:35
Subject: [ORG-discuss] US makes Korea eliminate fair use
To: Open Rights Group open discussion list
<org-discuss@...>, FIPR Alerts <alerts@...>

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/31/us_makes_korea_elimi.html

 Korea has just finished negotiating a free trade agreement with the
US that is a complete disaster on copyright. Korea has agreed to give
up all fair use to copyrighted works, and has agreed to shut down many
of its web-hosting businesses. So much for Korea's power as a global
Internet leader. It was nice while it lasted.
 In one glaring example, the governments agree to shut down internet
sites that permit unauthorized reproduction, distribution, or
transmission of copyrighted works — without reference to exceptions
for art, education and critique. If the agreement is ratified, both US
and Korean governments will begin shutting down an undisclosed number
of peer-to-peer (P2P) and online storage ('webhard') services. Korea
will also be required to crack down on book copying on university
campuses.

 The Korea–US FTA could set a dangerous precedent. If ratified, the US
is expected to push other countries to accept the similar conditions
in their respective FTAs. Much of the 'piracy' that the US wants to
see cracked down on is of materials copyrighted by large US-based
corporations, not individual creators. Since distribution of movies,
news, internet software and images is a core area of the US economy,
the US government has long been aggressively pushing for stricter
(Continue reading)

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Gmane