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Joseph Reagle | 12 Jun 2003 19:05
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Auto-generated Bibliographies


Dom,

I was recently thinking it's a great waste of my time to have to compile and 
update bibliographies in my specs. So I've been looking for a source of TR 
data that I could use and DanC pointed me to:
  http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/
  http://www.w3.org/2000/04/mem-news/tr.rdf

However, this only has the short name, latest date, title and editors. Any 
chance this could also scrape the full dated URI and status?
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Dan Connolly | 12 Jun 2003 19:50
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


On Thu, 2003-06-12 at 12:05, Joseph Reagle wrote:
> Dom,
> 
> I was recently thinking it's a great waste of my time to have to compile and 
> update bibliographies in my specs.

Ooh! yeah... I've been thinking for a *long* time that the best
way to get the editors to get their bibliographies right is
to do it for them.

I've been wishing for a form where you could paste in a list
of document URIs and back would come a bibliography for them,
formatted according to our guidelines...
  http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#References

Or just a "view as bibliography" in addition to
"view by author" and such.

I did some bibliography-formatting work in XSLT
for a URI scheme index...
  http://www.w3.org/Addressing/schemes#ctech
esp.

"TODO
     1. make dublin core bibliography formatting available separately
        from the resto of the stuff that the transformation does"

  -> http://www.w3.org/Addressing/schemesIndex.xsl
(Continue reading)

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Dominique Hazaël-Massieux | 16 Jun 2003 08:10
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies

On Thu, 2003-06-12 at 19:05, Joseph Reagle wrote:
> I was recently thinking it's a great waste of my time to have to compile and 
> update bibliographies in my specs.

That's also one of the thing that I would like to do with TR in RDF... I
was thinking to an extension to xmlspec, but other formats could work
well too.

> So I've been looking for a source of TR 
> data that I could use and DanC pointed me to:
>   http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/
>   http://www.w3.org/2000/04/mem-news/tr.rdf

The real data are at:
	http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf

> However, this only has the short name, latest date, title and editors. Any 
> chance this could also scrape the full dated URI and status?

You have all of that and more in the above URI.

Hope this helps,

Dom
--

-- 
Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - http://www.w3.org/People/Dom/
W3C/ERCIM
mailto:dom <at> w3.org
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Henry S. Thompson | 16 Jun 2003 11:26
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies

Dominique Hazaël-Massieux <dom <at> w3.org> writes:

> The real data are at:
> 	http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf

Any chance of getting a stable ID on each of the entries in that
document?  Then I'll put together a two - stage XML Pipeline (XInclude
plus XSLT) which will give everybody exactly what they want.

Something of the form
  . . . id="http:__www.w3.org_TR_2001_REC-SVG-20010904"
would do the job.

The following template will add this to the existing doc't:

<xsl:template match="/rdf:RDF/*[ <at> rdf:about]">
 <xsl:copy>
  <xsl:attribute name="id">
   <xsl:value-of select="translate( <at> rdf:about,'/','_')"/>
  </xsl:attribute>
  <xsl:apply-templates select=" <at> *|node()"/>
 </xsl:copy>
</xsl:template>

but it would be better to include this functionality somewhere in the
production process -- I couldn't quite figure out where that should be.

[Note that the nice overview at [1] is not quite as useful as it might
be, because lots of the links therein are broken :-(]
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Dominique Hazaël-Massieux | 16 Jun 2003 11:56
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies

On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:26, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> Any chance of getting a stable ID on each of the entries in that
> document?  Then I'll put together a two - stage XML Pipeline (XInclude
> plus XSLT) which will give everybody exactly what they want.

I'm not sure what you mean by stable... You have different keys that you
can use depending on what you need, but that may or may not be as stable
as you would wish:
* the rdf:about attribute for each document allows to retrieve the
information on a specific version of a document; but it disappears as
soon as a new version is published (we could probably set up a new
publication process where the informations on all the versions of the
document are kept)
* doc:version/rdf:resource allows you to retrieve the information on the
last version of a document.

More explicitly, one should only need to put:
<refbiblio href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/" /> to get all the
informations integrated in the final document using the data in
tr.rdf... 

> Something of the form
>   . . . id="http:__www.w3.org_TR_2001_REC-SVG-20010904"
> would do the job.

I'm not sure we need to use another key but the URI of the latest
version.

> [Note that the nice overview at [1] is not quite as useful as it might
> be, because lots of the links therein are broken :-(]
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Henry S. Thompson | 16 Jun 2003 12:10
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


Dominique Hazaël-Massieux <dom <at> w3.org> writes:

> On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:26, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> > Any chance of getting a stable ID on each of the entries in that
> > document?  Then I'll put together a two - stage XML Pipeline (XInclude
> > plus XSLT) which will give everybody exactly what they want.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by stable... You have different keys that you
> can use depending on what you need, but that may or may not be as stable
> as you would wish:
> * the rdf:about attribute for each document allows to retrieve the
> information on a specific version of a document; but it disappears as
> soon as a new version is published

I _think_ that's not what we want -- if you look at the normative
references sections of most of our RECs, they refer to _dated_
versions of other RECs.

> (we could probably set up a new publication process where the
> informations on all the versions of the document are kept)

That _is_ what we want, in my opinion.

> * doc:version/rdf:resource allows you to retrieve the information on the
> last version of a document.
> 
> More explicitly, one should only need to put:
> <refbiblio href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/" /> to get all the
> informations integrated in the final document using the data in
(Continue reading)

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Ian B. Jacobs | 16 Jun 2003 14:04
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 06:10, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> Dominique Hazaël-Massieux <dom <at> w3.org> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:26, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> > > Any chance of getting a stable ID on each of the entries in that
> > > document?  Then I'll put together a two - stage XML Pipeline (XInclude
> > > plus XSLT) which will give everybody exactly what they want.
> > 
> > I'm not sure what you mean by stable... You have different keys that you
> > can use depending on what you need, but that may or may not be as stable
> > as you would wish:
> > * the rdf:about attribute for each document allows to retrieve the
> > information on a specific version of a document; but it disappears as
> > soon as a new version is published
> 
> I _think_ that's not what we want -- if you look at the normative
> references sections of most of our RECs, they refer to _dated_
> versions of other RECs.

When I refer to a stable Rec, I use the dated version. When
I refer to a document that's not yet a Rec, I refer to the
dated version of the latest draft AND include a "latest version"
link as well.

 - Ian

--

-- 
Ian Jacobs (ij <at> w3.org)   http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel:                     +1 718 260-9447
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Dan Connolly | 16 Jun 2003 16:04
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 04:26, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> Dominique Hazaël-Massieux <dom <at> w3.org> writes:
> 
> > The real data are at:
> > 	http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/tr.rdf
> 
> Any chance of getting a stable ID on each of the entries in that
> document?  Then I'll put together a two - stage XML Pipeline (XInclude
> plus XSLT) which will give everybody exactly what they want.
> 
> Something of the form
>   . . . id="http:__www.w3.org_TR_2001_REC-SVG-20010904"
> would do the job.

Er... but RDF IDs have to be XML names.

Each entry already has an about attribute...

    <NOTE rdf:about="http://www.w3.org/1999/04/Editing/01">

what could you do with id that you can't do with about?

> The following template will add this to the existing doc't:
> 
> <xsl:template match="/rdf:RDF/*[ <at> rdf:about]">
>  <xsl:copy>
>   <xsl:attribute name="id">
>    <xsl:value-of select="translate( <at> rdf:about,'/','_')"/>
>   </xsl:attribute>
(Continue reading)

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Joseph Reagle | 16 Jun 2003 16:14
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


On Monday 16 June 2003 08:04, Ian B. Jacobs wrote:
> When I refer to a stable Rec, I use the dated version. When
> I refer to a document that's not yet a Rec, I refer to the
> dated version of the latest draft AND include a "latest version"
> link as well.

I believe the practice is to say what you mean, which IMHO means that for 
normative references one always provides a pointer to a dated version. (One 
can't normatively include the unspecified future, though in xmldsig we did 
get very closing to that with some of the Unicode specs and addendums! 
<smile/>) If your intent is to track another version then saying as much 
and providing both makes sense. 

Regardless, for a auto-biblio generation, I certainly want the dated 
versions.
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Henry S. Thompson | 16 Jun 2003 16:10
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Re: Auto-generated Bibliographies


Dan Connolly <connolly <at> w3.org> writes:

> Er... but RDF IDs have to be XML names.
> 
> Each entry already has an about attribute...
> 
>     <NOTE rdf:about="http://www.w3.org/1999/04/Editing/01">
> 
> what could you do with id that you can't do with about?

Answered in next message -- URLs are not valid XML IDs -- they contain
/, which is not Name character at all, and :, which is not allowed in
namespace-valid IDs, which must be NCNames.

So the value of rdf:about can't be used as a fragment identifier to
point to the relevant sub-tree of tr.rdf.

ht
--

-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
                      Half-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht <at> cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail really from me _always_ has this .sig -- mail without it is forged spam]
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