Bruce Labitt | 2 Jan 19:02 2012
Picon

How to test network quality (home)

The new year brings upgraded connectivity.  :)  Naturally I'd like to test my connection to see if I'm getting what I paid for.  I've tried some the tools at dslreports and received some strange results.  http://www.dslreports.com/pingtest/7ab34aa36277/2861823?r=64

pingtest.net seems to have some issues as well.  I get a fail on packet loss.  However the test does not return useful results (like % loss) since it does not complete.

Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?  Stuff like iperf requires a server.  Any network tools that "just run" that give *useful* results? 

tia
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Bruce Labitt | 2 Jan 19:42 2012
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mint

I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to get anything done.

Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop handled?

Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?

Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.  It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to maintain.

Any insights?
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Coleman Kane | 2 Jan 19:51 2012

Re: mint

A friend of mine at work (GE) uses Mint for his primary desktop environment and swears by it. I think GNOME 3 is the desktop environment (rather than Unity).

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 2, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to get anything done.

Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop handled?

Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?

Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.  It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to maintain.

Any insights?
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David Rysdam | 2 Jan 19:59 2012

Re: mint

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce Labitt
<bruce.labitt@...> wrote:
> Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

Yes you have. Ubuntu, especially older versions, *is* Debian, but with
shinier graphics.

> I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to 
> have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS 
> was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that 
> is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video 
> especially) and can support vlc and myth?

10.04 was released only 18 months ago. What specifically do you need
more modern than what was in that? Debian 6.0/Squeeze was released in
February 2011. 
Bruce Labitt | 2 Jan 20:27 2012
Picon

Re: mint

On 01/02/2012 01:59 PM, David Rysdam wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce
Labitt<bruce.labitt@...>  wrote:
>> Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.
> Yes you have. Ubuntu, especially older versions, *is* Debian, but with
> shinier graphics.
Yes, and I appreciate *some* of the shininess.
>
>> I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to
>> have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS
>> was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that
>> is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video
>> especially) and can support vlc and myth?
> 10.04 was released only 18 months ago. What specifically do you need
> more modern than what was in that? Debian 6.0/Squeeze was released in
> February 2011.
I was hoping for slightly better behavior for video tools.  myth on 
10.04 is buggy.  It mysteriously crashes.  Using the ppa doesn't seem to 
fix things.  Yes, I know that this is a myth problem.  I was hoping 
perhaps rather foolishly that a slightly more modern version would 
behave better.  It would seem many developers abandon support for 
*maturer* versions of the distro.

I was also looking for updated python and scientific tools.  
mayavi2/vtk, etc.

I really don't need to do it. (But I did do it.  I am not happy that I 
did do it.)  I did want a PVR solution that worked.  I haven't found 
anything close to the ability of myth.  Too bad it has so many warts.  
As in having insufficient up time to be a video recorder.  I want to 
program the shows I'd like to record and actually have myth record it.  
myth would segfault sometime during the week - yeah that is useful.

Getting closer to topic - what are the down sides to Debian?  More work 
for me?  Less hand holding?  But more stable - right?  End of the 
constant non-compatible/broken updates?

On topic - anyone have experience with MATE?

> _______________________________________________
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@...
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
>
>
David Rysdam | 2 Jan 21:02 2012

Re: mint

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:42 -0500, Bruce Labitt
<bruce.labitt@...> wrote:
> On 01/02/2012 01:59 PM, David Rysdam wrote:
> > On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce
Labitt<bruce.labitt@...>  wrote:
> Getting closer to topic - what are the down sides to Debian?  More work 
> for me?  Less hand holding?  But more stable - right?  End of the 
> constant non-compatible/broken updates?

I actually upgraded directly from Ubuntu 10.04 to Debian 6 with zero
problems. That is, I kept my /home (and dotfiles) and just replaced the
OS and had no issues other than having to install packages I want that
weren't installed by default.

I can't say I've been more stable because I wasn't *un*stable before
(reboots basically dictated by power outages). But a lot less updating
for sure. Hasn't been more work.

However, it *has* been MUCH more of a hassle getting accelerated video
to work, because it requires the non-free drivers which Debian is less
willing to handle for the user. I'm not sure I can really blame Debian
for following their charter, though. It's just that I've had to fall
back onto my own ignorance.
Ben Scott | 3 Jan 00:36 2012
Picon

Re: How to test network quality (home)

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Bruce Labitt
<bruce.labitt@...> wrote:
> Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?

  I've had SmokePing recommended to me for this purpose.

-- Ben
Ben Eisenbraun | 3 Jan 00:49 2012

Re: How to test network quality (home)

On Mon, Jan 02, 2012 at 06:36:24PM -0500, Ben Scott wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Bruce Labitt
> <bruce.labitt@...> wrote:
> > Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?
> 
>   I've had SmokePing recommended to me for this purpose.

Seconded. If you have a machine running 24/7, it produces very nice
RRDTool graphs of packet loss and latency that you can show to
engineering types and get a reasonable response.*

-ben

* The times I have showed the graphs to first-level tech support types,
the answers have ranged from "what's 5% packet loss between friends?" to
"our email doesn't show images" responses...

--
empirical veracity is sacrificed on the altar of theoretical parsimony.
                                                        <howard raiffa>
Ryan Lee Stanyan | 3 Jan 02:55 2012
Picon

Re: mint

Also with Gnome Shell you can extend the desktop environment using
Javascript as far as I heard.  There is a website for it, though it will
only work with Firefox.

https://extensions.gnome.org/

On Mon, 2012-01-02 at 13:51 -0500, Coleman Kane wrote:
> A friend of mine at work (GE) uses Mint for his primary desktop
> environment and swears by it. I think GNOME 3 is the desktop
> environment (rather than Unity).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Bruce Labitt
> <bruce.labitt@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From
> > what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is
> > based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a
> > steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for
> > doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It
> > seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to
> > get anything done.
> > 
> > Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop
> > handled?
> > 
> > Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.
> > 
> > I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want
> > to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what
> > 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.
> > Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older
> > hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?
> > 
> > Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.
> > It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to
> > maintain.
> > 
> > Any insights?
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> > gnhlug-discuss@...
> > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss@...
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
David Ohlemacher | 3 Jan 04:46 2012
Picon

Re: gnhlug-discuss Digest, Vol 64, Issue 1

I to looked at updating from Maverick and refused to stick with Ubuntu.  Unity really is a steaming bucket.   I played with it in a virtual machine for 15 minutes.  It would be fine on a cell phone, but that is it.

So looking around I moved to LMDE/xfce.   LMDE is fast and I like xfce. I want stable, usable and configurable, hold the eye candy.  But I have had several issues that broke it required fixing.    VmWare is not really compatible.  After installation I could no long do any apt-get updates.   Also, USB did not work at all in VMs.  But it was fixable.   Also, every 20-30 reboots my desktop gets screwed up and I have to delete ~/.Cache/session and logout/in.   When this happens, each window gets stacked in the upper right corner with no title bars at all and no way to switch apps. Only the last app started can be used. Strange.  There are a few other smaller issues.  One positive thing that surprised me was that setting up my network printer took about 3 seconds.  That was nice.

Even with the issues, I still like LMDE.  It's been on my laptop for 3 months. I know how to fix it quickly.  I may switch distros, but I think I'll be sticking with xfce.

For xmas, we now have two new zareason systems.  A desktop and a laptop, both with mint 12.   Mint 12 wont be around very long.   It's unusually painful to change simple things like adding to the panel or making a new panel. Unity will need to make some room in the bucket for Gnome3.    The root user is called "Administrator"!    Did windoze infect Linux desktops?  It seems so.  

Zareason was great by the way.  It was me that asked for Mint 12; there were several choices.  I appreciate 24/7 support with someone that speaks American English and knows how to spell Linux.  They threw in a 850W 80+ Gold p/s instead of the cheap 350W I was expecting.

Anyone love KDE?  I used to in the 2.0 - 3.5 days, but 4.0 was so unusable I dumped it immediately.  I liked kdevelop, but it was horriblely broken in 4.0 (spent the time to really learn vim).  I hear KDE is now much better, but I like dot files (rsync-able) and abhor registries.

-d

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Today's Topics:

  1. How to test network quality (home) (Bruce Labitt)
  2. mint (Bruce Labitt)
  3. Re: mint (Coleman Kane)
  4. Re: mint (David Rysdam)
  5. Re: mint (Bruce Labitt)
  6. Re: mint (David Rysdam)
  7. Re: How to test network quality (home) (Ben Scott)
  8. Re: How to test network quality (home) (Ben Eisenbraun)
  9. Re: mint (Ryan Lee Stanyan)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net>
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:02:08 -0500
Subject: How to test network quality (home)
The new year brings upgraded connectivity.  :)  Naturally I'd like to test my connection to see if I'm getting what I paid for.  I've tried some the tools at dslreports and received some strange results.  http://www.dslreports.com/pingtest/7ab34aa36277/2861823?r=64

pingtest.net seems to have some issues as well.  I get a fail on packet loss.  However the test does not return useful results (like % loss) since it does not complete.

Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?  Stuff like iperf requires a server.  Any network tools that "just run" that give *useful* results? 

tia


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net>
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500
Subject: mint
I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to get anything done.

Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop handled?

Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?

Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.  It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to maintain.

Any insights?


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Coleman Kane <ckane-N/NRndIJ2GY9smdsby/KFg@public.gmane.org>
To: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org>
Cc: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:51:37 -0500
Subject: Re: mint
A friend of mine at work (GE) uses Mint for his primary desktop environment and swears by it. I think GNOME 3 is the desktop environment (rather than Unity).

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 2, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to get anything done.

Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop handled?

Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?

Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.  It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to maintain.

Any insights?
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Rysdam <david <at> rysdam.org>
To: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:59:06 -0500
Subject: Re: mint
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.

Yes you have. Ubuntu, especially older versions, *is* Debian, but with
shinier graphics.

> I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to
> have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS
> was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that
> is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video
> especially) and can support vlc and myth?

10.04 was released only 18 months ago. What specifically do you need
more modern than what was in that? Debian 6.0/Squeeze was released in
February 2011.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net>
To: gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:42 -0500
Subject: Re: mint
On 01/02/2012 01:59 PM, David Rysdam wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce Labitt<bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net>  wrote:
Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.
Yes you have. Ubuntu, especially older versions, *is* Debian, but with
shinier graphics.
Yes, and I appreciate *some* of the shininess.

I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want to
have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what 10.04 LTS
was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.  Anything that
is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older hardware (video
especially) and can support vlc and myth?
10.04 was released only 18 months ago. What specifically do you need
more modern than what was in that? Debian 6.0/Squeeze was released in
February 2011.
I was hoping for slightly better behavior for video tools.  myth on 10.04 is buggy.  It mysteriously crashes.  Using the ppa doesn't seem to fix things.  Yes, I know that this is a myth problem.  I was hoping perhaps rather foolishly that a slightly more modern version would behave better.  It would seem many developers abandon support for *maturer* versions of the distro.

I was also looking for updated python and scientific tools.  mayavi2/vtk, etc.

I really don't need to do it. (But I did do it.  I am not happy that I did do it.)  I did want a PVR solution that worked.  I haven't found anything close to the ability of myth.  Too bad it has so many warts.  As in having insufficient up time to be a video recorder.  I want to program the shows I'd like to record and actually have myth record it.  myth would segfault sometime during the week - yeah that is useful.

Getting closer to topic - what are the down sides to Debian?  More work for me?  Less hand holding?  But more stable - right?  End of the constant non-compatible/broken updates?


On topic - anyone have experience with MATE?




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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Rysdam <david-7XGmy22Zng8dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
To: gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweBeG+b0+jjpfw@public.gmane.orgg
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 15:02:29 -0500
Subject: Re: mint
On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 14:27:42 -0500, Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> On 01/02/2012 01:59 PM, David Rysdam wrote:
> > On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 13:42:16 -0500, Bruce Labitt<bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org>  wrote:
> Getting closer to topic - what are the down sides to Debian?  More work
> for me?  Less hand holding?  But more stable - right?  End of the
> constant non-compatible/broken updates?

I actually upgraded directly from Ubuntu 10.04 to Debian 6 with zero
problems. That is, I kept my /home (and dotfiles) and just replaced the
OS and had no issues other than having to install packages I want that
weren't installed by default.

I can't say I've been more stable because I wasn't *un*stable before
(reboots basically dictated by power outages). But a lot less updating
for sure. Hasn't been more work.

However, it *has* been MUCH more of a hassle getting accelerated video
to work, because it requires the non-free drivers which Debian is less
willing to handle for the user. I'm not sure I can really blame Debian
for following their charter, though. It's just that I've had to fall
back onto my own ignorance.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ben Scott <dragonhawk-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Greater NH Linux User Group <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:36:24 -0500
Subject: Re: How to test network quality (home)
On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Bruce Labitt
<bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?

 I've had SmokePing recommended to me for this purpose.

-- Ben



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ben Eisenbraun <bene-Gk2boCrsRs1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
To: gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweAhChdpW8WuRQ@public.gmane.orgorg
Cc: 
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 18:49:21 -0500
Subject: Re: How to test network quality (home)
On Mon, Jan 02, 2012 at 06:36:24PM -0500, Ben Scott wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Bruce Labitt
> <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net> wrote:
> > Are there any decent tools or scripts that one can use?
>
>   I've had SmokePing recommended to me for this purpose.

Seconded. If you have a machine running 24/7, it produces very nice
RRDTool graphs of packet loss and latency that you can show to
engineering types and get a reasonable response.*

-ben

* The times I have showed the graphs to first-level tech support types,
the answers have ranged from "what's 5% packet loss between friends?" to
"our email doesn't show images" responses...

--
empirical veracity is sacrificed on the altar of theoretical parsimony.
                                                       <howard raiffa>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ryan Lee Stanyan <ryan.stanyan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: Bruce Labitt <bruce.labitt-ubggFOsnOr3gwBMGfI3FeA@public.gmane.org>, Coleman Kane <ckane-N/NRndIJ2GY9smdsby/KFg@public.gmane.org>
Cc: GNHLUG <gnhlug-discuss-Z8c80N6yweDq5qozqU1N3A@public.gmane.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:55:26 -0500
Subject: Re: mint
Also with Gnome Shell you can extend the desktop environment using
Javascript as far as I heard.  There is a website for it, though it will
only work with Firefox.

https://extensions.gnome.org/

On Mon, 2012-01-02 at 13:51 -0500, Coleman Kane wrote:
> A friend of mine at work (GE) uses Mint for his primary desktop
> environment and swears by it. I think GNOME 3 is the desktop
> environment (rather than Unity).
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 2, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Bruce Labitt
> <bruce.labitt <at> myfairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm tempted to try out mint.  There are quite a few options.  From
> > what I gather, Mint is based on Ubuntu.  So the latest Mint 12 is
> > based on Oneiric.  I have Oneiric now and really think it is a
> > steaming bucket as far as productivity.  It really is not made for
> > doing work, it seems to be more oriented towards eye-candy.  It
> > seems to take a lot more mouse movement and difficult navigation to
> > get anything done.
> >
> > Anyone have experience with the Mint family?  How is the desktop
> > handled?
> >
> > Should I take the plunge to LMDE?  I've never run debian before.
> >
> > I'm not looking for which distro is the best ever, unless folks want
> > to have fun.  Just looking for something that is closer to what
> > 10.04 LTS was.  I run and maintain that at work for my two servers.
> > Anything that is a bit more modern than 10.04 that 1) runs on older
> > hardware (video especially) and can support vlc and myth?
> >
> > Maybe I'm just looking to hold on to gnome.  It worked well enough.
> > It didn't have too much stupid stuff and was relatively easy to
> > maintain.
> >
> > Any insights?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> > gnhlug-discuss <at> mail.gnhlug.org
> > http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
> >
> _______________________________________________
> gnhlug-discuss mailing list
> gnhlug-discuss <at> mail.gnhlug.org
> http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/




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