>I'm not so sure Python derives from Algol

Sorry, I meant _spiritually_, not literally.

Python has that Algol/PL1/Pascal/C/C++/Java/etc feel to it, especially syntactically.

Ruby is definitely more of a Smalltalk/Scheme/etc descendent regarding the ‘taste’ of the language. Sort of a modern Smalltalk (loosely speaking).

For example, in Smalltalk everything’s an object so things like

            7.print()

are fine (assuming I got the syntax right). In this case, “7” _is an object_ (an instance of the ‘number’ class, so to speak), and its “print” method is being called.

And yes, Jython has been slow going the past few years which is most unfortunate, but JRuby seems to have been about equally effective

The cool part of Jython (to me) is things like

            from java.lang import System

            s = System.getProperty(“foo”)

            print (int) s + 1

and, even though you’re accessing Java code, you’re writing Python. The level of integration Jython accomplished is pretty impressive and slick.

There’s also IronPython for a .NET implementation of Python, though that seems more ho-hum; requires .NET Framework 2.0 and the CLR’s still (also) heavily biased towards static languages so it’s not clear if you truly get Python or just a large subset i.e. “C# with significant whitespace”?

Don’t know about a Ruby.net. Like I said, I’m more of a Python guy. Wouldn’t surprise me, nor if it’s somewhat equally underwhelming for like reasons.

>I will agree Ruby might be closer to the Smalltalk language, but Python is not far away. 

Agreed. That’s why I didn’t really mention the whole “Ruby has continuations whereas Python has generators” – from a purist’s perspective, generators are not the same and never will be, but the _pragmatic_ point is generators get you 90%+ the same net effect so let’s just leave the quibbling over theoretical fine print to the purists…

            - Howard

I'm not so sure Python derives from Algol, but I don't have enough experience with Algol to say much.  least according to the creator Guido van Rossum, the language was derived from a research-based language, ABC.  However, ABC was designed as an interactive replacement for BASIC, and BASIC was derived from Fortran 2 and Algol 60 so one could say Python was derived from Algol, but then you might as well say humans were derived from viruses.

At CWI he took the ABC language, then added language features that other collegues in his department wanted.  In the talk, he described how his office-mate really loved the icon programming language and extracted a few features from there.  He also mentions how python is so similar to Lisp and Smalltalk.  I will agree Ruby might be closer to the Smalltalk language, but Python is not far away. 

Also, we use Jython at work, but I can say that development in that area has slowed greatly.  It's hard to get updates to basic bugs these days.  We had to contact the developer directly and strongly urge him to fix a bug we found.

Let's not open up that can of worms that is language religion!

Dean Mao

Decision Science

Global Brand Services

InterContinental Hotels Group

770.604.8793

dean.mao-kNYD4D8qmEBbaj9gzE0k7wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Howard Kapustein
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
To: ajug-members-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ruby on Rails uses Ruby as its.primary programming language.

Ruby is 13(?) years old like python, and shares many traits - dynamic language, supports "duck typing", large library, etc.

The primary difference between Ruby and Python, IMO, is that Ruby derives from Smalltalk whereas Python drives from Algol. If you like smalltalk or scheme or the like, you probably like Ruby; if you like algol, Pascal, C, C++, java or the like, you probably like python.



Rails adds a slew of things, providing a framework to build web applications. The closest thing I've seen in the Python world is TurboGears.


Personally I like python more, bit that's just me.


For java folks, there's also Jython and JRuby which are the language running in the jvm. Jython has the sweetest cross language integration I've ever seen; JRuby was a bit weak late last year (eg. Couldn't run Rails) but was getting a lot of attention so it should improve.

    - Howard

--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld. Please excuse any egregious typos.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Sent: Tue Feb 28 22:14:46 2006
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ok, I'll bite.  What is going on with "R" on Rails?  I've seen the book at borders.  Is it like Python?  I did a project with Python, it wasn't bad at all.


On 2/28/06, John Sirbu <johnsirbu-Bdlq13kUjeyLZ21kGMrzwg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

        Agreed...
       
        I would even venture Groovy would be the first candidate, followed by
        Python, Jython, Django since they ARE a more natural path for us Java users.
       
        >From this point onward I vote for anyone caught bringing up the "R" in
        on Rails be banished to the PHP user group land *cue the spinning mirror
        from Superman 2*
        for trying to poach, corrupt young minds and be named honorary
        hype-wagon driver.
       
        Now 'cuse me while I setup my infinity loop, on vacation, auto-reply.
       
        Regards,
        John.
       
        Les A. Hazlewood wrote:
       
        >Let's please not go down the RRails path.  Instead, the folks on this
        >list may be more intesrested in
        >
        >Grails: http://grails.codehaus.org/ <http://grails.codehaus.org/>  (my favorite so far)
        >
        >or
        >
        >Trails: http://trails.dev.java.net/
        >
        >Cheers,
        >
        >Les
        >
        >On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:15:39 -0500, "Rutherford, Robert"
        ><rrutherf-V0yVEUPB0QQS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> said:
        >
        >
        >>Or Seam.  :-P
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>-----Original Message-----
        >>Wrom: BRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQ

I’ve heard of Zope, but it seems more like a traditional “J2EE container” than “Rails” – seems more in the heavyweight side of things than the lightweight model.

[Rails and TurobGears are more like Tomcat than Websphere or such…]

            - Howard

Also, one small comment about python's framework to build web applications....   TurboGears might be one (I have no clue what that is), however Python has a large one that you are missing.  Perhaps you have heard of Zope?  Or Zope Plone?  I don't know anything in Ruby that comes close to the scale of Plone. 

Dean Mao

Decision Science

Global Brand Services

InterContinental Hotels Group

770.604.8793

dean.mao-kNYD4D8qmEBbaj9gzE0k7wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Howard Kapustein
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
To: ajug-members-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ruby on Rails uses Ruby as its.primary programming language.

Ruby is 13(?) years old like python, and shares many traits - dynamic language, supports "duck typing", large library, etc.

The primary difference between Ruby and Python, IMO, is that Ruby derives from Smalltalk whereas Python drives from Algol. If you like smalltalk or scheme or the like, you probably like Ruby; if you like algol, Pascal, C, C++, java or the like, you probably like python.



Rails adds a slew of things, providing a framework to build web applications. The closest thing I've seen in the Python world is TurboGears.


Personally I like python more, bit that's just me.


For java folks, there's also Jython and JRuby which are the language running in the jvm. Jython has the sweetest cross language integration I've ever seen; JRuby was a bit weak late last year (eg. Couldn't run Rails) but was getting a lot of attention so it should improve.

    - Howard

--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld. Please excuse any egregious typos.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Sent: Tue Feb 28 22:14:46 2006
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ok, I'll bite.  What is going on with "R" on Rails?  I've seen the book at borders.  Is it like Python?  I did a project with Python, it wasn't bad at all.


On 2/28/06, John Sirbu <johnsirbu-Bdlq13kUjeyLZ21kGMrzwg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

        Agreed...
       
        I would even venture Groovy would be the first candidate, followed by
        Python, Jython, Django since they ARE a more natural path for us Java users.
       
        >From this point onward I vote for anyone caught bringing up the "R" in
        on Rails be banished to the PHP user group land *cue the spinning mirror
        from Superman 2*
        for trying to poach, corrupt young minds and be named honorary
        hype-wagon driver.
       
        Now 'cuse me while I setup my infinity loop, on vacation, auto-reply.
       
        Regards,
        John.
       
        Les A. Hazlewood wrote:
       
        >Let's please not go down the RRails path.  Instead, the folks on this
        >list may be more intesrested in
        >
        >Grails: http://grails.codehaus.org/ <http://grails.codehaus.org/>  (my favorite so far)
        >
        >or
        >
        >Trails: http://trails.dev.java.net/
        >
        >Cheers,
        >
        >Les
        >
        >On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:15:39 -0500, "Rutherford, Robert"
        ><rrutherf-V0yVEUPB0QQS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> said:
        >
        >
        >>Or Seam.  :-P
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>-----Original Message-----
        >>Wrom: BRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQ

Are there any compatibility issues between java 1.3 (with jdbc 2.0) and Oracle 9i?

We have an Old Java application on WebSphere (5.0.2) (Java 1.3) that uses jdbc 2.0 to access Oracle 8i database.  Due to company policy the Oracle database needs to be upgraded to version 9i.  Thought I would ask our group to see if anyone out there is using this scenario?

Thanks in advance.

Nizar Bhamani

I’ve heard of Zope, but it seems more like a traditional “J2EE container” than “Rails” – seems more in the heavyweight side of things than the lightweight model.

[Rails and TurobGears are more like Tomcat than Websphere or such…]

            - Howard

Also, one small comment about python's framework to build web applications....   TurboGears might be one (I have no clue what that is), however Python has a large one that you are missing.  Perhaps you have heard of Zope?  Or Zope Plone?  I don't know anything in Ruby that comes close to the scale of Plone. 

Dean Mao

Decision Science

Global Brand Services

InterContinental Hotels Group

770.604.8793

dean.mao-kNYD4D8qmEBbaj9gzE0k7wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Howard Kapustein
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
To: ajug-members-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ruby on Rails uses Ruby as its.primary programming language.

Ruby is 13(?) years old like python, and shares many traits - dynamic language, supports "duck typing", large library, etc.

The primary difference between Ruby and Python, IMO, is that Ruby derives from Smalltalk whereas Python drives from Algol. If you like smalltalk or scheme or the like, you probably like Ruby; if you like algol, Pascal, C, C++, java or the like, you probably like python.



Rails adds a slew of things, providing a framework to build web applications. The closest thing I've seen in the Python world is TurboGears.


Personally I like python more, bit that's just me.


For java folks, there's also Jython and JRuby which are the language running in the jvm. Jython has the sweetest cross language integration I've ever seen; JRuby was a bit weak late last year (eg. Couldn't run Rails) but was getting a lot of attention so it should improve.

    - Howard

--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld. Please excuse any egregious typos.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Sent: Tue Feb 28 22:14:46 2006
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ok, I'll bite.  What is going on with "R" on Rails?  I've seen the book at borders.  Is it like Python?  I did a project with Python, it wasn't bad at all.


On 2/28/06, John Sirbu <johnsirbu-Bdlq13kUjeyLZ21kGMrzwg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

        Agreed...
       
        I would even venture Groovy would be the first candidate, followed by
        Python, Jython, Django since they ARE a more natural path for us Java users.
       
        >From this point onward I vote for anyone caught bringing up the "R" in
        on Rails be banished to the PHP user group land *cue the spinning mirror
        from Superman 2*
        for trying to poach, corrupt young minds and be named honorary
        hype-wagon driver.
       
        Now 'cuse me while I setup my infinity loop, on vacation, auto-reply.
       
        Regards,
        John.
       
        Les A. Hazlewood wrote:
       
        >Let's please not go down the RRails path.  Instead, the folks on this
        >list may be more intesrested in
        >
        >Grails: http://grails.codehaus.org/ <http://grails.codehaus.org/>  (my favorite so far)
        >
        >or
        >
        >Trails: http://trails.dev.java.net/
        >
        >Cheers,
        >
        >Les
        >
        >On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:15:39 -0500, "Rutherford, Robert"
        ><rrutherf-V0yVEUPB0QQS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> said:
        >
        >
        >>Or Seam.  :-P
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>-----Original Message-----
        >>Wrom: 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I’ve heard of Django. There’s a few others out there, though nothing seems quite to match ROR just yet.

Guido’s written some interesting thoughts on the subject

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=146149

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=146503

http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=146606

Sorry, this thread’s gotten a tad offtopic for a Java group (though nowadays it’s hard not to say “Java” and “Web” without “Ruby on Rails” entering the discussion…

Steering back towards Java-ness…the important part of ROR, IMO, is not its implementation but its approach.

There’s pretty much _nothing_ truly ‘new’ in ROR (with 1 exception).

What’s truly novel is how the pieces are put together, in what seems truly stunning and nearly revolutionary ways.

ORM? ActiveRecord. [Hibernate. JDO. Others.]

Web Server? Continuation-based design. [A nearly ideal match to how web-based ‘sessions’ are supposed to behave]

AppWizard? Rails.exe [see favorite tool/IDE New-Whatever menus]

Presentation layout? RHTML. [ASP. JSP. PHP…]

Testing? The strong dev-test-prod structure and from-the-get-go support.

MVC? ROR has strong support for it.

CodeGen? Bah. Ruby’s a dynamic language, just have at it and add methods/attributes to objects at runtime. [Hibernate’s use of CGLIB, etc.]

The whole DRY concept (and not just saying it, but living it).

There’s a bunch other things Rails does which are mighty slick and effective, for its class of problems – which, let’s face it, “slap some browser pages over a relational database structure” is a (the?) common development need.

Personally I’m not overly fond of Ruby’s notation (hence why I’m hoping Turbogears or the like , but ROR has a lot of lessons many in the industry should learn from (though perhaps especially in the Java community). That’s the part of ROR that most fascinates me. Whether or not I use ROR, many of the ways ROR is designed are dead-on and applicable to most any language or system or project.

(1) The truly unique thing in ROR are the tutorials. Written text? Bah. 15-minute FLICKR movies. Pretty…unusual…technique, compared to what people usually do and see.

-          Howard

Zope is pretty heavyweight, but I think most of the developers these days work with Zope-Plone instead, and Plone does make things a lot easier for developing web apps.  Most of the Plone-based web app source code is super tiny, but still does a lot.  I remember doing a survey of project management addons for Plone and almost all of them were smaller than 12k, but they had the feel of some pretty advanced php equivalent project managment stuff.  I think Zope is around 400k lines of code and Plone is probably near 150k but the apps for plone are all super tiny. 

Also in the python web app frameworks there's something called django.  I've heard a lot about it so it's probably pretty popular as well.

Dean Mao

Decision Science

Global Brand Services

InterContinental Hotels Group

770.604.8793

dean.mao-kNYD4D8qmEBbaj9gzE0k7wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Howard Kapustein
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:18 PM
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Subject: RE: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

I’ve heard of Zope, but it seems more like a traditional “J2EE container” than “Rails” – seems more in the heavyweight side of things than the lightweight model.

[Rails and TurobGears are more like Tomcat than Websphere or such…]

            - Howard

Also, one small comment about python's framework to build web applications....   TurboGears might be one (I have no clue what that is), however Python has a large one that you are missing.  Perhaps you have heard of Zope?  Or Zope Plone?  I don't know anything in Ruby that comes close to the scale of Plone. 

Dean Mao

Decision Science

Global Brand Services

InterContinental Hotels Group

770.604.8793

dean.mao-kNYD4D8qmEBbaj9gzE0k7wC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org

From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org [mailto:ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Howard Kapustein
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
To: ajug-members-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ruby on Rails uses Ruby as its.primary programming language.

Ruby is 13(?) years old like python, and shares many traits - dynamic language, supports "duck typing", large library, etc.

The primary difference between Ruby and Python, IMO, is that Ruby derives from Smalltalk whereas Python drives from Algol. If you like smalltalk or scheme or the like, you probably like Ruby; if you like algol, Pascal, C, C++, java or the like, you probably like python.



Rails adds a slew of things, providing a framework to build web applications. The closest thing I've seen in the Python world is TurboGears.


Personally I like python more, bit that's just me.


For java folks, there's also Jython and JRuby which are the language running in the jvm. Jython has the sweetest cross language integration I've ever seen; JRuby was a bit weak late last year (eg. Couldn't run Rails) but was getting a lot of attention so it should improve.

    - Howard

--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld. Please excuse any egregious typos.
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ajug-members-bounces-4vciHtwbE8s@public.gmane.org
To: General AJUG membership forum (100-200 messages/month)
Sent: Tue Feb 28 22:14:46 2006
Subject: Re: [lists] Re: [ajug-members] Latte Group

Ok, I'll bite.  What is going on with "R" on Rails?  I've seen the book at borders.  Is it like Python?  I did a project with Python, it wasn't bad at all.


On 2/28/06, John Sirbu <johnsirbu-Bdlq13kUjeyLZ21kGMrzwg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

        Agreed...
       
        I would even venture Groovy would be the first candidate, followed by
        Python, Jython, Django since they ARE a more natural path for us Java users.
       
        >From this point onward I vote for anyone caught bringing up the "R" in
        on Rails be banished to the PHP user group land *cue the spinning mirror
        from Superman 2*
        for trying to poach, corrupt young minds and be named honorary
        hype-wagon driver.
       
        Now 'cuse me while I setup my infinity loop, on vacation, auto-reply.
       
        Regards,
        John.
       
        Les A. Hazlewood wrote:
       
        >Let's please not go down the RRails path.  Instead, the folks on this
        >list may be more intesrested in
        >
        >Grails: http://grails.codehaus.org/ <http://grails.codehaus.org/>  (my favorite so far)
        >
        >or
        >
        >Trails: http://trails.dev.java.net/
        >
        >Cheers,
        >
        >Les
        >
        >On Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:15:39 -0500, "Rutherford, Robert"
        ><rrutherf-V0yVEUPB0QQS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> said:
        >
        >
        >>Or Seam.  :-P
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>-----Original Message-----
        >>Wrom: BRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPH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