Vickram Crishna | 1 Aug 2011 05:09
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii-oOvZX6Rv2P8@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Kiritkumar Lathia | 1 Aug 2011 12:36
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii-oOvZX6Rv2P8@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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horvitz | 1 Aug 2011 13:47
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IEEE's new white space standard

I wouldn't get too excited about this, folks.  Broadcast engineers
strongly influenced these rules to protect television and undermine
the "business case" for manufacturing white space devices.  They
were designed to make the white space option unpalatable.  The rules
proposed years ago by ECMA are far better, although they don't
satisfy the rules adopted by the FCC for the US market.  See

http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/TC48-TG1.htm

>BOB<

White space standard gets lukewarm reception
By Rupert Goodwins, 29 July, 2011 11:46 
from ZDNet's Mixed Signals blog ("Any sufficiently advanced
information is indistinguishable from noise")

American standards body the IEEE has finished work on 802.22.1 and
802.22.2, part of the 802.22 standard for white space radio. This
defines how wireless broadband systems can interleave themselves
between other signals, potentially opening up unused spectrum in
previously allocated bands.

With theoretical maximum figures of 100km range and speeds of up to
22Mbps, 802.22 is designed to bring internet access to remote rural
areas through wireless regional area networks (Wrans). However, with
each cell supporting a maximum of 12 users, one cell at maximum
range would support a population density of one user for every 82
square kilometres, 650 times more sparse than the Scottish
Highlands. 

802.22 is designed to operate between 54 and 698 MHz, mostly within
broadcast TV spectrum. By sensing which channels are in use,
referring to a database of known transmitters, and adjusting its own
transmissions to eliminate interference, 802.22 is designed to
automatically morph its own presence to fit around existing
services. 

UK white space pioneer Neul, which is developing its own Weightless
standard said in a statement that while it was pleased to see white
space ideas endorsed it was not going to adopt 802.22 initially,
although it would review this if the standard proved successful. 

"802.22 is designed for rural broadband: high bandwidth, high power
terminals and a relatively small number of users per basestation.
The Weightless standard is aimed entirely at M2M [machine to
machine]: low bandwidth, extremely low power terminals and many
thousands of devices per basestation. The standards do not compete
at all," the company said.

"[We] have a high bandwidth mode that can be used for rural
broadband. This already offers similar performance to that promised
by 802.22. We are believers in open standards for wireless devices
and may adopt 802.22 if it is successful. However, such standards
are most valuable where it is essential to ensure interoperability
between devices from different manufacturers. This is not really the
case for rural broadband because most installations use access point
and the consumer premises equipment from the same manufacturer,"
Neul said. 

The company also said that it doubted the rural broadband market was
big enough to support economic development of the necessary custom
chips, and M2M was needed in addition to make the market large
enough for commercial exploitation.

-- 
Robert Horvitz
Stichting Open Spectrum
Slavikova 11, 120 00 Prague 2, Czech Republic
Gelderlandplein 75 L, 1082 LV Amsterdam, Nederland
mailto:bob@...
http://www.openspectrum.info/
mob: +420 775024705
tel/fax: +420 222967456

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Unknown | 2 Aug 2011 20:30

Internet... academic research

Dear all: Am working on a small presentation in Goa on how the Net can be useful to researchers. Would be very grateful if you could offer me any pointers, specially sharable e-books that could be distributed among the audience. Many thanks! FN

FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 (after 2pm)
#784 Nr Lourdes Convent, Saligao 403511 Goa India 


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Vickram Crishna | 3 Aug 2011 05:29
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/77030

For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhE@public.gmane.orgsr.org>
Cc: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhFwzdS3I9S0Mw@public.gmane.orgrg>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia <at> gmail.com>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii-oOvZX6Rv2P8@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Kiritkumar Lathia | 3 Aug 2011 09:50
Picon

Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vickram,


My comment was a general one specially when one reads what is happening in India "re: corruptionn scandals", etc. "Techies" (and I am one of them) do have sense of honour, morality and societal conscience. I was following your "black vs. white" blogging style. However, my main point has been the following: "Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. So to influence, one needs to participate in the right environment - blogging on the net alone does not achieve it unless someone picks up the baton and does something in the right environment (eg IEEE standards body in the example we were looking at).

Note also how the broadcasters seem to have succeeded in ensuring that the new standard is economically not viable by allowing extremely low user density - these are "rules of the game": FCC wanted a standard and there is a standard which can not be used or at least no one will use it in USA, Canada or Europe!

The example you have provided shows the usefulness of checks and balances - which also operates in all formally recognised standard developmets world populated by "techies" and without these we would be in middle ages!

Once the standards/products are out there - how they are used (or abused) relies on the human ingenuity and creativity - see literally lacs of apps in the Apple appstore.

Best wishes,
Kirit


On 3 August 2011 05:29, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.


For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhGCUJKsHU7iFw@public.gmane.org.org>
Cc: "india-gii <at> lists.cpsr.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii <at> cpsr.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Kiritkumar Lathia | 3 Aug 2011 10:04
Picon

Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vickram,

Please do not see the below as in any way "attack" on you or any person - each has a role to play in our complex and interconnected society. It is just to point out that there is no simple black/white although the generalisation helps in better understanding an issue at hand. I respect your views but that does not imply I agree with them totally. There are always many shades or grey.
Best wishes,
Kirit

On 3 August 2011 09:50, Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dear Vickram,

My comment was a general one specially when one reads what is happening in India "re: corruptionn scandals", etc. "Techies" (and I am one of them) do have sense of honour, morality and societal conscience. I was following your "black vs. white" blogging style. However, my main point has been the following: "Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. So to influence, one needs to participate in the right environment - blogging on the net alone does not achieve it unless someone picks up the baton and does something in the right environment (eg IEEE standards body in the example we were looking at).

Note also how the broadcasters seem to have succeeded in ensuring that the new standard is economically not viable by allowing extremely low user density - these are "rules of the game": FCC wanted a standard and there is a standard which can not be used or at least no one will use it in USA, Canada or Europe!

The example you have provided shows the usefulness of checks and balances - which also operates in all formally recognised standard developmets world populated by "techies" and without these we would be in middle ages!

Once the standards/products are out there - how they are used (or abused) relies on the human ingenuity and creativity - see literally lacs of apps in the Apple appstore.

Best wishes,
Kirit


On 3 August 2011 05:29, Vickram Crishna <v1clist <at> yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.


For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhGCUJKsHU7iFw@public.gmane.org.org>
Cc: "india-gii <at> lists.cpsr.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii <at> cpsr.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Vickram Crishna | 3 Aug 2011 10:11
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

[Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. ]

Crazily enough, this - looking after economic interests first - is the first fallacy. Actually, the creation of a nest egg is so irrational in concept that is beats me it still dictates so much of human activity. Still, it does not, in fact, precisely in those regions we consider part of our own ethos here in India - mostly rural India. Money as the central core of life is much more a city thing. Before anyone thinks I am talking about Mumbai and Delhi, no, Indian cities number in the thousands, if one uses population as a common-sense measure. I am talking about those places that aren't cities, where trading, such that it is, still takes place without the exchange of cash - in fact, not even as a denominator, for anyone who wants to sidetrack into credit and the spectre of bonded labour.  

However, in the world of standards, I totally agree that people look quickly to safeguarding their economic interests. I thought some people might find the Emacs example quite salutary, therefore, because it describes an ecosystem where money is not the defining principle, and this failure (temporary inability to respect GPL) is one that does not involve money either.

In the bewildering flood of data that engulfs most of us nowadays, it is rather easy to forget that there was once a time when money did not mean everything, that such a time was not very long ago, and that life goes on quite well (actually, quite horribly, but for mostly external reasons, and yet it goes on) without it, for a large part of the world even today. I am not advocating that we drop money from our modern world, but it does seem to me that we might find a time again where it is not the end-all and be-all of our days. 

Hopefully, using technology sensibly, we might find a suitable substitute to help society function more equitably, one that is more attuned to an intelligent and growth-oriented mind. Having said which, a recent article suggests that our body's internal energy supply system means that we are already using about as much brainpower as we can sustain, so the future may not be all that bright. But, to someone who thinks positive, that only means that we owe it to ourselves to use our existing brainpower more efficiently, instead of wasting so much time and effort on money. 

Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2011, 13:20
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vickram,

My comment was a general one specially when one reads what is happening in India "re: corruptionn scandals", etc. "Techies" (and I am one of them) do have sense of honour, morality and societal conscience. I was following your "black vs. white" blogging style. However, my main point has been the following: "Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. So to influence, one needs to participate in the right environment - blogging on the net alone does not achieve it unless someone picks up the baton and does something in the right environment (eg IEEE standards body in the example we were looking at).

Note also how the broadcasters seem to have succeeded in ensuring that the new standard is economically not viable by allowing extremely low user density - these are "rules of the game": FCC wanted a standard and there is a standard which can not be used or at least no one will use it in USA, Canada or Europe!

The example you have provided shows the usefulness of checks and balances - which also operates in all formally recognised standard developmets world populated by "techies" and without these we would be in middle ages!

Once the standards/products are out there - how they are used (or abused) relies on the human ingenuity and creativity - see literally lacs of apps in the Apple appstore.

Best wishes,
Kirit


On 3 August 2011 05:29, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.


For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhE@public.gmane.orgsr.org>
Cc: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia <at> gmail.com>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii-oOvZX6Rv2P8@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Vickram Crishna | 3 Aug 2011 10:14
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

I did not see it that way at all. Nor will you, I hope, or anyone else. 

Nor do I think my views are simplistically black and white. Sometimes, especially in natural light, grey may appear black or white. And in the dark, purple.
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2011, 13:34
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vickram,
Please do not see the below as in any way "attack" on you or any person - each has a role to play in our complex and interconnected society. It is just to point out that there is no simple black/white although the generalisation helps in better understanding an issue at hand. I respect your views but that does not imply I agree with them totally. There are always many shades or grey.
Best wishes,
Kirit

On 3 August 2011 09:50, Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Dear Vickram,

My comment was a general one specially when one reads what is happening in India "re: corruptionn scandals", etc. "Techies" (and I am one of them) do have sense of honour, morality and societal conscience. I was following your "black vs. white" blogging style. However, my main point has been the following: "Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. So to influence, one needs to participate in the right environment - blogging on the net alone does not achieve it unless someone picks up the baton and does something in the right environment (eg IEEE standards body in the example we were looking at).

Note also how the broadcasters seem to have succeeded in ensuring that the new standard is economically not viable by allowing extremely low user density - these are "rules of the game": FCC wanted a standard and there is a standard which can not be used or at least no one will use it in USA, Canada or Europe!

The example you have provided shows the usefulness of checks and balances - which also operates in all formally recognised standard developmets world populated by "techies" and without these we would be in middle ages!

Once the standards/products are out there - how they are used (or abused) relies on the human ingenuity and creativity - see literally lacs of apps in the Apple appstore.

Best wishes,
Kirit


On 3 August 2011 05:29, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.


For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhE@public.gmane.orgsr.org>
Cc: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia <at> gmail.com>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii-oOvZX6Rv2P8@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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Kiritkumar Lathia | 3 Aug 2011 11:54
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Re: IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

One must not confuse the tool (and money is a tool) from the underlying cause. Barter system also relies on placing some value on good / service being exchanged and also the supply/demand plays a role in determining this value. The rural Indians would also love to have a system (money) which avoids the need to provide something which can be exchanged - no good for someone to offer me onions when what I want is some milk and have carrots to offer! Money acts as "common denominator" so we can exchange money rather than me exchanging carrots for onions and then onions for some milk which I wanted in the first place!.


Anyway the root cause you are looking for is something called "desire" and "need to better oneself". One can suppress the desire by brute force (eg USSR and many Arab countries) but this fails in the end - a lesson the Chinese Communist Party learnt very well and fast:
- Party wants to retain power
- People want to better them selves

and the solution found by Deng (and it seems to work so far) was to allow the capitalism (money!) to allow people to satisfy their desire of (materially) bettering themselves while retaining strict control/punishment for any who would dare to question Party's desire of retaining power.

Now desire as "a root of all evil" may be much better than "money as root of all evil" as you imply but now we are really getting into OT area.

Best wishes,
Kirit

On 3 August 2011 10:11, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. ]

Crazily enough, this - looking after economic interests first - is the first fallacy. Actually, the creation of a nest egg is so irrational in concept that is beats me it still dictates so much of human activity. Still, it does not, in fact, precisely in those regions we consider part of our own ethos here in India - mostly rural India. Money as the central core of life is much more a city thing. Before anyone thinks I am talking about Mumbai and Delhi, no, Indian cities number in the thousands, if one uses population as a common-sense measure. I am talking about those places that aren't cities, where trading, such that it is, still takes place without the exchange of cash - in fact, not even as a denominator, for anyone who wants to sidetrack into credit and the spectre of bonded labour.  

However, in the world of standards, I totally agree that people look quickly to safeguarding their economic interests. I thought some people might find the Emacs example quite salutary, therefore, because it describes an ecosystem where money is not the defining principle, and this failure (temporary inability to respect GPL) is one that does not involve money either.

In the bewildering flood of data that engulfs most of us nowadays, it is rather easy to forget that there was once a time when money did not mean everything, that such a time was not very long ago, and that life goes on quite well (actually, quite horribly, but for mostly external reasons, and yet it goes on) without it, for a large part of the world even today. I am not advocating that we drop money from our modern world, but it does seem to me that we might find a time again where it is not the end-all and be-all of our days. 

Hopefully, using technology sensibly, we might find a suitable substitute to help society function more equitably, one that is more attuned to an intelligent and growth-oriented mind. Having said which, a recent article suggests that our body's internal energy supply system means that we are already using about as much brainpower as we can sustain, so the future may not be all that bright. But, to someone who thinks positive, that only means that we owe it to ourselves to use our existing brainpower more efficiently, instead of wasting so much time and effort on money. 

Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2011, 13:20

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vickram,

My comment was a general one specially when one reads what is happening in India "re: corruptionn scandals", etc. "Techies" (and I am one of them) do have sense of honour, morality and societal conscience. I was following your "black vs. white" blogging style. However, my main point has been the following: "Unless one actively participates in defining something (eg standards), one should not be surprised is the participants looked after their (economic) interests first - that is human nature. So to influence, one needs to participate in the right environment - blogging on the net alone does not achieve it unless someone picks up the baton and does something in the right environment (eg IEEE standards body in the example we were looking at).

Note also how the broadcasters seem to have succeeded in ensuring that the new standard is economically not viable by allowing extremely low user density - these are "rules of the game": FCC wanted a standard and there is a standard which can not be used or at least no one will use it in USA, Canada or Europe!

The example you have provided shows the usefulness of checks and balances - which also operates in all formally recognised standard developmets world populated by "techies" and without these we would be in middle ages!

Once the standards/products are out there - how they are used (or abused) relies on the human ingenuity and creativity - see literally lacs of apps in the Apple appstore.

Best wishes,
Kirit


On 3 August 2011 05:29, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
[So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".]

One must look at all approaches and analyse under which circumstances, where, and what succeeds.


For instance, in this current case, two recent releases of Emacs have been declared non-compliant with GPL. The announcement came from Stallman himself, explaining that a handful of files have been included that turned out not to be GPL compliant. The problem is being rectified. Perhaps a storm in a teacup, or perhaps an example of how informed techies do respond to longer-term social imperatives. 

I suspect such empirical evidence is the only kind we have, at the moment, although perhaps it is an area that demands more study.
 
Sent: Monday, 1 August 2011, 16:06

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

The standard in question is: 802.22-2011 - IEEE Standard for Information Technology--Telecommunications and information exchange between systems Wireless Regional Area Networks (WRAN)--Specific requirements Part 22: Cognitive Wireless RAN Medium Access Control (MAC) and Physical Layer (PHY) Specifications: Policies and Procedures for Operation in the TV Bands.

Its short description is: This standard specifies the air interface, including the cognitive medium access control layer (MAC) and physical layer (PHY), of point-to-multipoint wireless regional area networks comprised of a professional fixed base station with fixed and portable user terminals operating in the VHF/UHF TV broadcast bands between 54 MHz to 862 MHz.

It has to be recognised that standards are written by people who are paid by their companies / legal entities to defend their (economic) interests and not general societal issues unless explicitly mandated to do so (and even then the economic interests will prevail). In India, this has been deemed as not important since India mostly takes standards developed elsewhere.

The general question raised by Vickram below can not be blamed on "techies" - human beings will (mis)use any technology / situation for their gain - part of human nature, specially if morality and/or social norms go out of the window as we can observe the behaviour of the political class.

At technology level, nobody thought of identity thefts and worse when designing the Internet which today has morphed into something that none would have believed possible even 10 years ago.

So the issue then becomes: what are the (societies) checks and balances with appropriate sanctions? Alas, government regulations and judiciary for the protection of citizens leave a lot to be desired (IMHO) when there is the rush to "get rich quick at any cost".

BR
Kirit

On 1 August 2011 05:09, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
You raise an interesting point, Ashok. To be frank, I have not seen any compilation that specifically draws on this theme. 

What attracted my attention was the automotive example, which reminded me of the anti-collision system designed (or promoted) by B. Rajaram for the railways, which is slowly coming into use, I think considerably more than a decade (and several horrific accidents) since its design. 

Of course, there is a huge difference between systems designed for public and private transportation, chiefly because the dangers to intrusion into private space. 

Let us take the case of GPS anti-theft systems. Made possible due to the 'opening up' of US GPS navsats data, GPS two way systems were conceived as convenient ways in which to track commercial transport, for which some advantages were obvious - ability to finely track and monitor the movement of goods, prevent or trailback diversion of the transporter, minimisation of carriage of illegal/illicit goods or persons, and so on. Later on, more insidious 'features' were introduced - monitoring of the driver, for instance, thought to be convenient in order to monitor driver performance, but having plenty of scope for the kind of personal monitoring that goes a bit beyond. 

Then came GPS two-way systems for private cars, said to be effective as anti-theft systems, but quickly used (and sold), for instance, by parents to monitor their children's movements (in the US minor children - 16 years old, I think, at least in some states - can get driver licenses). 

My point is that systems like this are designed and developed (right down to the standards) quite remote from public examination and review, unlike public policy. Not that India has a sterling track record in public involvement with policy directions and setting, but that is hardly the point. We are discussing policy directions, not just Indian policy. 

We (human society) do not have a good way to resolve the complications between technological development and what might be called reasoned or debated choice. On this list, and many like it, we have seen the tussle between the technology underlying the Internet, and that of governments who want to control both content and content delivery on it. In many cases, the technology paradigm, business decisions, government policies and the expressed wishes of people are four different things. IPv6 is one such case, with its scope for facilitating multi-tiered accessibility. It is nearly upon us, yet as far as I can see, absolutely no headway has been made in finding a solution to myriad social problems that may arise from its adoption. 

Well over two hundred years ago, the textile industry in what is now the UK faced the same kind of problems. Technology meant to make the work of spinners and weavers simpler was actually deployed to create the most inhuman factories and cities imaginable, setting up the basis for an unsustainable global fiscal paradigm that is looking very fragile indeed today, and may look worse tomorrow (US time). People who objected were ruthlessly crushed, leading to a violent movement whose eradication led to a very erroneous meaning being attached to the word 'Luddite' - someone who opposes technology, rather than someone who wants technology to work for humans, and not the other way around. In the cyberworlds, we find a similar error very commonly applied these days - 'hacker', someone who breaks into secure networks to steal data, rather than someone who develops better and more efficient code and systems, often meant to benefit people. At least hacker is usually spelt with small caps, unlike Luddite, which is supposedly named after a legendary union organiser, Ludd. Just like the legendary members of Anonymous, hardly anything is known about Ludd. 
 
At least, for the automotive 'anti-collision systems' (one might also call them 'independent automotive communication systems', because that is what how they will function) for which standards are currently being developed, there is burgeoning consciousness amongst human rights supporters that something needs to be done to make the process of debate and discussion more open and proactive. It remains to be seen whether this will result in a positive intervention. 

From: Ashok Jhunjhunwala <ashok-JWifh0Q/tGjINaghk1cIrg@public.gmane.org>
To: "india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhGCUJKsHU7iFw@public.gmane.org.org>
Cc: "india-gii <at> lists.cpsr.org" <india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2011, 17:51

Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

Dear Vikram,

I agree that techies sometime go wrong. But can one to begin with, give reasons why this technique is not good -- is there a good reference to standard? While there has been work, I have not seen authentic articles yet.

ashok jhunjhunwala, iit madras
Sent from my iPad

On 30-Jul-2011, at 12:22, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:

'Standards' is, of course, a more appropriate term to use than 'legislation'. 

We are seeing, repeatedly, insidious attempts by a community of techies (in one sci-fi story I read, the term used was 'political engineer') to emplace constrictions on society by the adoption of singular variants of technology. One of the earliest was of course, in radio itself, where any attempt to create wireless signalling on the electromagnetic spectrum was ruthlessly crushed (this would have mainly been around the pre-Word War 1 days), in favour of the Marconi system. This also probably (the connection seems obvious, much like the dog that didn't bark in the night) the reason that Tesla and Stubblefield wireless power transmission and distribution (they represent two different approaches) is so little researched.  

There is no question of 'legislation'. IEEE does not represent, by any standard (if you'll pardon the pun) the common person in any democratic country. Yet its pronouncements are, like those of the ITU, taken as gospel in many nations, especially those like ours, where official representation that endorses a national policy approach in the matter of specific technology standards and developments is non-existent, thus making a mockery of any pretensions to democracy within IEEE. 

And before anyone gets up on a hobbyhorse, I am not in the least advocating that non-technical persons sit on technical committees - but it would be helpful to the progress of human society if the technical people, who did, were at least officially informed about the consequences (to their own country, and even to the world) of such directions.

The latest inroads into wireless communication openness have come, not from IEEE, but from the automotive industry. Under the pretext of building reliable anti-collision systems (about the need for which, of course, nobody is likely to seriously be in denial, although one can easily see the scope to draw a comparison to a sledgehammer being used to drive in a thumbtack), the auto industry is putting together control systems that so seriously invade the privacy of car users that it is simply breathtaking. The systems will pull in personal identification, through annunciating driver licenses, vehicle identification, through onboard data systems (part of the control systems of every modern car), locational systems (a combination of public GPS and cell-tower locationing, thus pulling in telcos as well as satellite operators in order to precisely define location overground and under cover (city streets often include areas invisible to satellites). Since such systems are already potentially tied in with government-provided database systems, such as licensing of vehicles and drivers, the scope for truly intrusive and invasive monitoring of personal transportation is stupendous. And yet, not a word from legislators, in any democratic country, to question the necessity for such systems to interlink without legislative oversight of application of laws to protect personal privacy. 
 
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
From: Kiritkumar Lathia <kplathia-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
Cc: India- gii <india-gii <at> cpsr.org>
Sent: Friday, 29 July 2011, 13:01
Subject: Re: [india-gii] IEEE rushes through legislation on SuperWiFi

On 28 July 2011 19:35, sajan venniyoor <venniyoor-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
As the story says, white space technology is "especially useful for serving less densely populated areas, such as rural areas, and developing countries where most vacant TV channels can be found." There are plenty of white spaces in the analogue TV spectrum in India, but I wonder if DoT will ever allow unlicensed operations in that band. 

Sajan

 

The website which will provide more information is the "IEEE Standards Association" - the Standards body of IEEE:  http://standards.ieee.org/.

As I have been mentioning, India is essentially a "standards/technology" consumer so the interest of those (manufacturing) entity would be to see if there is an Indian market interest (which would then provide the necessary economy of scale) as it is highly unlikely that in USA, Europe, China, etc. the standard7technology can be used although in theory it the utilises "unlicensed" spectrum, it would need to prove that there is no harmful interference to the just liberated "digital dividend" TV spectrum. The regulators in many countries are looking for additional revenues from the sale of these "digital dividend" spectrum as mobile operators look for additional (4G) spectrum to address the same market using the LTE technology.

So is this yet another attempt (by WiMax technology IPR owners) to have another try at the market using a different standard/technology? Remember it is not always the best technology which wins the market!

best wishes,
Kirit

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