Vickram Crishna | 1 Jan 2010 18:21
Picon
Favicon

Number portability - delays and excuses

http://igovernment.in/site/mnp-implementation-extended-march-next-year-36506

The article states that the reason for delay (which says more than my morning newspapers today) is due to the
decision to extend the scheme all-India at one shot. This is because the operators reported problems in
managing the reduced implementation in time for today's deadline. 

Giving them 3 months extra time will apparently sort out their difficulties, and by March end, what they
could not do for a few circles, they will do for the whole country. 
 Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii

VK Cherian | 2 Jan 2010 03:53
Picon

Re: Number portability - delays and excuses

One of the reaosn is that no one operator, espceially GSM ones are  ready and confident of doing do..As lack of spctrum is plaing havoc with call quality. And most of all MTNL and  BSNL will be the worst sufferers, thanks to their back to customer policy for years..

On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist <at> yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
http://igovernment.in/site/mnp-implementation-extended-march-next-year-36506

The article states that the reason for delay (which says more than my morning newspapers today) is due to the decision to extend the scheme all-India at one shot. This is because the operators reported problems in managing the reduced implementation in time for today's deadline.

Giving them 3 months extra time will apparently sort out their difficulties, and by March end, what they could not do for a few circles, they will do for the whole country.
 Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com




____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    india-gii-exipcMZXGhH4KYEpUobs9A@public.gmane.orgg
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
    india-gii-unsubscribe <at> lists.cpsr.org

For all list information and functions, see:
    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii



--
VK Cherian
New Delhi
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
Vickram Crishna | 2 Jan 2010 10:44
Picon
Favicon

Re: Number portability - delays and excuses

>
>From: VK Cherian <vkcherian@...>
>To: india-gii@...
>Sent: Sat, 2 January, 2010 8:23:38
>Subject: Re: [india-gii] Number portability - delays and excuses
>
>One of the reaosn is that no one operator, espceially GSM ones are  ready and confident of doing do..As lack
of spctrum is plaing havoc with call quality. And most of all MTNL and  BSNL will be the worst sufferers,
thanks to their back to customer policy for years..
>
With due respect, the entire purpose of number portability is to allow subscribers to change their
services without facing serious accessibility issues as far as being contacted is concerned, ie, if
no-one knows your (new) number, than they can't call you. 

It is completely inevitable that some amount of subscriber churn will take place: in fact, that is the
objective. It is a shame that spectrum allocation problems have made life difficult for subscribers, but
this cannot be the excuse for delaying something that is not only feasible, but has been done for years in
other telecom regions. 

It is also completely inevitable that there will be difficulties in the beginning. So much so, that
cautious wannabe shifters would do well to wait a bit before switching, in order to let the worst wrinkles
be ironed out. However, human behaviour does not follow rationale and logic in its entirety, so expect
some jamming at the gates when they open. If...?  

Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com

>
>On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist@...> wrote:
>
>http://igovernment.in/site/mnp-implementation-extended-march-next-year-36506
>>
>>The article states that the reason for delay (which says more than my morning newspapers today) is due to
the decision to extend the scheme all-India at one shot. This is because the operators reported problems
in managing the reduced implementation in time for today's deadline.
>>
>>Giving them 3 months extra time will apparently sort out their difficulties, and by March end, what they
could not do for a few circles, they will do for the whole country.
>> Vickram
>>http://communicall.wordpress.com
>>http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>    india-gii@...
>>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    india-gii-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
>>
>
>
>-- 
>>VK Cherian
>New Delhi
>

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii

Robert Horvitz | 2 Jan 2010 15:34
Picon

Spectrum self-management for mobile phone industry?

Greetings all, and happy new year!

Any opinions on this novel proposal?

>BOB<

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/telecom/Tatas-call-on-TRAI-for-creation-of-spectrum-custodian/articleshow/5403819.cms

Tatas call on TRAI for creation of spectrum custodian
by Joji Thomas Philip
Economic Times Bureau, 2 Jan 2010

NEW DELHI: The Tatas have proposed the creation of a wireless spectrum
pool, managed by an independent entity, as a panacea for the intractable

problems over the allocation of the scarce resource for mobile phone
services. Tata Teleservices, which operates the Indicom CDMA-based mobile
network and the Tata DoCoMo GSM service, has suggested to telecom regulator
TRAI that independently-managed pooled spectrum will reduce costs for
phone firms and allow the most efficient use of the resource.

It wants to ensure the independence of the so-called Mobile Network Authority
(MNA) by limiting the shareholding of the coalition of mobile phone
operators in the entity to 49% and capping the ownership of individual
cellphone companies at 15%. Furthermore, it seeks to distribute the
ownership of 51% among corporate bodies, foreign investors and the public
with a caveat that these independent stakeholders should not have more
than 1% equity participation in any mobile operator...

-- 
Robert Horvitz
Stichting Open Spectrum
Slavikova 11, 120 00 Prague 2, Czech Republic
Gelderlandplein 75 L, 1082 LV Amsterdam, Nederland
mailto:bob@...
http://www.openspectrum.info/
mob: +420 775024705
tel/fax: +420 222967456

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii

VK Cherian | 4 Jan 2010 02:15
Picon

Re: Number portability - delays and excuses

Sure I agree with you  Vickram..MY issue is that none of the  operators are taking this seriously...as they expect very very negligible  percent of customers will churn.. reason being India is a predominantly prepaid market. The churn as they say happens on a month on month basis already..

VK Cherian

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>From: VK Cherian <vkcherian <at> gmail.com>
>To: india-gii-exipcMZXGhH4KYEpUobs9A@public.gmane.orgg
>Sent: Sat, 2 January, 2010 8:23:38
>Subject: Re: [india-gii] Number portability - delays and excuses
>
>One of the reaosn is that no one operator, espceially GSM ones are  ready and confident of doing do..As lack of spctrum is plaing havoc with call quality. And most of all MTNL and  BSNL will be the worst sufferers, thanks to their back to customer policy for years..
>
With due respect, the entire purpose of number portability is to allow subscribers to change their services without facing serious accessibility issues as far as being contacted is concerned, ie, if no-one knows your (new) number, than they can't call you.

It is completely inevitable that some amount of subscriber churn will take place: in fact, that is the objective. It is a shame that spectrum allocation problems have made life difficult for subscribers, but this cannot be the excuse for delaying something that is not only feasible, but has been done for years in other telecom regions.

It is also completely inevitable that there will be difficulties in the beginning. So much so, that cautious wannabe shifters would do well to wait a bit before switching, in order to let the worst wrinkles be ironed out. However, human behaviour does not follow rationale and logic in its entirety, so expect some jamming at the gates when they open. If...?


Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com



>
>On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist-/E1597aS9LT10XsdtD+oqA@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>http://igovernment.in/site/mnp-implementation-extended-march-next-year-36506
>>
>>The article states that the reason for delay (which says more than my morning newspapers today) is due to the decision to extend the scheme all-India at one shot. This is because the operators reported problems in managing the reduced implementation in time for today's deadline.
>>
>>Giving them 3 months extra time will apparently sort out their difficulties, and by March end, what they could not do for a few circles, they will do for the whole country.
>> Vickram
>>http://communicall.wordpress.com
>>http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>    india-gii-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
>>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>    india-gii-unsubscribe-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org
>>
>>For all list information and functions, see:
>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
>>
>
>
>--
>>VK Cherian
>New Delhi
>



____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
    india-gii-exipcMZXGhFwzdS3I9S0Mw@public.gmane.orgrg
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
    india-gii-unsubscribe-exipcMZXGhH9nmKIgjYY/w@public.gmane.org

For all list information and functions, see:
    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii



--
VK Cherian
New Delhi
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
Vickram Crishna | 4 Jan 2010 07:23
Picon
Favicon

Re: Number portability - delays and excuses


>
>From: VK Cherian <vkcherian@...>
>To: india-gii@...
>Sent: Mon, 4 January, 2010 6:45:42
>Subject: Re: [india-gii] Number portability - delays and excuses
>
>Sure I agree with you  Vickram..MY issue is that none of the  operators are taking this seriously...as they
expect very very negligible  percent of customers will churn.. reason being India is a predominantly
prepaid market. The churn as they say happens on a month on month basis already..
>>VK Cherian

That's an interesting point on view.

Actually, there must be two clear classes of phone users, those who use it as an extension of identity, and
those who merely regard phones as gadgets, with minimal 'identity' attached. For the former (to which I
think I belong, not that I either make or receive a lot of calls, which is in itself interesting - hmmm?), the
phone is as important for receiving calls as it is for making them, hence a strong need to have the number
associated with the person. The latter, however, may use it merely for simple POTS type communications,
both caller and receiver ignoring the 'caller id' functionality. 

How many of each class, how strong the affiliation, how visible the churn, all these are things that a Number
Portability outfit or a strong cross-industry association ought to be researching. 

If what you say is borne out by figures, for instance, then the ban of prepaid in Kashmir takes on a clear
Constitutional flavour, with residents of that state being treated as separate, without the rights of
ordinary Indian citizens*, by a department of the government that has no business** fiddling about with
Constitutional matters. 

*Yes, I am aware that Kashmiri residents are ruled by a special Article 370, I am merely pointing out that
telecom isn't specifically mentioned in it. To take it one step further, such moves must be specifically
sanctioned by Parliament, not unilaterally imposed by any department or departments, acting in concert
or otherwise (which my nasty suspicious mind thinks may happen quite often). 
**ie DoT is not mandated by the Constitution to differentiate between citizens, whether in Goa or Kashmir.

Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com

>
>
>On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist@...> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>>From: VK Cherian <vkcherian@...>
>>>>>To: india-gii@...
>>>>>Sent: Sat, 2 January, 2010 8:23:38
>>>>>Subject: Re: [india-gii] Number portability - delays and excuses
>>
>>>
>>>>>One of the reaosn is that no one operator, espceially GSM ones are  ready and confident of doing do..As
lack of spctrum is plaing havoc with call quality. And most of all MTNL and  BSNL will be the worst sufferers,
thanks to their back to customer policy for years..
>>>>
>>>
>>With due respect, the entire purpose of number portability is to allow subscribers to change their
services without facing serious accessibility issues as far as being contacted is concerned, ie, if
no-one knows your (new) number, than they can't call you.
>>
>>>>It is completely inevitable that some amount of subscriber churn will take place: in fact, that is the
objective. It is a shame that spectrum allocation problems have made life difficult for subscribers, but
this cannot be the excuse for delaying something that is not only feasible, but has been done for years in
other telecom regions.
>>
>>>>It is also completely inevitable that there will be difficulties in the beginning. So much so, that
cautious wannabe shifters would do well to wait a bit before switching, in order to let the worst wrinkles
be ironed out. However, human behaviour does not follow rationale and logic in its entirety, so expect
some jamming at the gates when they open. If...?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Vickram
>>http://communicall.wordpress.com
>>http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Vickram Crishna
<v1clist@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://igovernment.in/site/mnp-implementation-extended-march-next-year-36506
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The article states that the reason for delay (which says more than my morning newspapers today) is
due to the decision to extend the scheme all-India at one shot. This is because the operators reported
problems in managing the reduced implementation in time for today's deadline.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Giving them 3 months extra time will apparently sort out their difficulties, and by March end, what
they could not do for a few circles, they will do for the whole country.
>>>>>> Vickram
>>>>>>http://communicall.wordpress.com
>>>>>>http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>    india-gii@...
>>>>>>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>>>    india-gii-unsubscribe@...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>    http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>>VK Cherian
>>>>>New Delhi
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>     india-gii@...
>>>>To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>     india-gii-unsubscribe@...
>>
>>>>For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
>>
>
>
>-- 
>VK Cherian
>New Delhi
>

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii

Vickram Crishna | 6 Jan 2010 04:51
Picon
Favicon

3G digging, with MNP overtones

Investigative journalist Sucheta Dalal's magazine Moneylife takes a fresh look at the MNP
'adjournment', hinting (shouting, pretty much) that there's more to it (than has met our GIEye so far). 

[What has the auction of 3G got to do with MNP? There are two points—first, only those MSPs with strong
balance sheets can dare to go in for the auction process; second, it will allow these MSPs to upgrade and
thus retain existing high-value subscribers from migrating to other MSPs.]

http://www.moneylife.in/article/8/3065.html (report by Yogesh Sapkale)

In short, if you want to know more about the impending churn, read way beyond what the churnos in the old
mainstream media will tell you. Moneylife mentions the names of the two MNP service providers - Syniverse
and MNP Interconnection. It would be good to get someone working/consulting with them into the list. 

Sharebroker Motilal Oswal opines that the mandated low portability cost-to-consumer will intensify the
tariff wars, increase consolidation and benefit the biggies (since only they will be able to bear part or
all of the Rs 19 per port MNP charge without passing it on to the consumer). Actually, I think the high cost of
3G (set in the impending auction) will hit anyone and everyone who bids successfully. And if they are in
fact able to successfully bear up against both 3G costs and number porting hits, then perhaps we need to
question how effective the examination of their balance sheets (ie, the chartered accountant
certification) really can be. If SMS costs are cut, as per the TRAI order, broadband must follow,
hopefully sooner rather than later. Where are the real revenues coming from?

btw, the comment about high rates of churn in prepaid, already discussed here, is repeated, but once again,
without any quoted research. Where can we find numbers to back up this point of view? I think both the
financial and the sociological aspects bear study. What do we really know about telephone numbers and
identity in the Indian psyche?
 Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii

Banibrata Dutta | 6 Jan 2010 06:50
Picon

Re: 3G digging, with MNP overtones



On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist <at> yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
chartered accountant certification) really can be. If SMS costs are cut, as per the TRAI order, broadband must follow, hopefully sooner rather than later. Where are the real revenues coming from?

Good point to debate/discuss, but I think "where are the real revenues coming from ?" will be an important question to answer.
 
We can call Telco's greedy, money-suckers etc. etc., but the point is, either the govt. should start running that organisation as a utility service company (which I dare say, seeing the conditioning of BSNL, will spell a worse doom), or have status-quo.
 
Telcos' earn from various sources (I think), other than the subscription fees, and usage charges, which come directly from the subscribers. However these other sources, depend heavily on having a sizable subscriber base, and sufficient information about the subscribers, that can be monetized in a smart way, without breaking (or hopefully bending) any rules (law of the land).
--
regards,
Banibrata
http://www.linkedin.com/in/bdutta
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii
Kingsly John | 7 Jan 2010 21:30
Favicon

The Gazette of India [Possibly OT]

Anyone know if there are electronic copies of the Gazette available online?

I found this site http://www.egazette.nic.in/ , which probably has them but
not sure if it's updated (Most searches only result in a handful of results
from 2008) and they want 75-250 rupees for each weekly edition. And the kicker
is it won't work unless you have an IDBI Bank account. That's the only
payment option and you have no choice!

Oh and they also have this beautiful disclaimer...
<quote http://www.egazette.nic.in/Disclaimer.htm >
Department of Publication shall not be liable for any loss or damage
whatsoever, including incidental or consequential loss or damage, arising out
of, or in connection with, any use of or reliance on the information from
this website. In case of doubt or query, users are requested to refer to the
original Gazettes by contacting the Department of Publication.
</quote>

Which seems to contradict their "About Us" page, which says...

<quote>
The Government of India publications are authentic in content, accurate and
strictly in accordance with the Government policies and decisions. It is a
Quality product and economically priced. Please rely on Government
publications only. 
</quote>

(RAMA PUBLISHERS) seem to selling annual subscriptions for printed
versions at over a lakh of rupees for all parts and sections.
http://gazetteofindia.org/gazette-india.htm

(I have no idea how voluminous the gazettes for a year are. But it appears
even the "egazettes" will cost the same amount. (over 50k assuming all 14
parts/sections are published every week at INR 75 per copy) 

Also the official site has prominent copyright warnings 

Shouldn't such publications be CC licensed considering "This is an
authorised legal document of Government of India containing the mode of
operations under the law of the land." 

Requiring someone to shell out a lakh of rupees a year to see how the govt.
is operating seems rather steep and unaffordable for most people.

Kingsly
--

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Kingsly At Users Dot SourceForge Dot Net  -- http://kingsly.org/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vickram Crishna | 8 Jan 2010 12:11
Picon
Favicon

Re: 3G digging, with MNP overtones

>
>From: Banibrata Dutta <banibrata.dutta@...>
>
>On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Vickram Crishna <v1clist@...> wrote:
>
>chartered accountant certification) really can be. If SMS costs are cut, as per the TRAI order, broadband
must follow, hopefully sooner rather than later. Where are the real revenues coming from?
>>
>>
>Good point to debate/discuss, but I think "where are the real revenues coming from ?" will be an important
question to answer.
> 
>We can call Telco's greedy, money-suckers etc. etc., but the point is, either the govt. should start
running that organisation as a utility service company (which I dare say, seeing the conditioning of
BSNL, will spell a worse doom), or have status-quo.
> 
>Telcos' earn from various sources (I think), other than the subscription fees, and usage charges, which
come directly from the subscribers. However these other sources, depend heavily on having a sizable
subscriber base, and sufficient information about the subscribers, that can be monetized in a smart way,
without breaking (or hopefully bending) any rules (law of the land).

My penchant for seeing the dark side may lead some to think I am only interested in criticising, but I prefer
to think of it as asking the difficult questions that don't seem to interest others. 

Most service businesses have multiple sources of revenue. When those revenue streams come perilously
close to 'bending' or 'breaking' laws, it interests this group, I think, not because we have any
super-citizenly interest in putting anyone behind bars, but because:

1. If the rule, law or policy that is being tested may not, in our not-so-humble and definitely not unlearned
opinions, be in the best long term interests of the country, or of humanity, or both (hopefully, more often
than not).
2. If the rule, law or policy is in fact a Good Thing (as per conditions in 1. above), then the breaches or
near-breaches may well be harmful in ways that have not been spelt out elsewhere, and we think this is worth
a discussion, and perhaps someone will take the lead in doing something about it (preferably, as far as I am
concerned, to fix the issues and create an example where others will behave more responsibly, rather than
to spell out punishments that benefit no-one). 

I totally agree that subscription based services often find new ways of revenue generation based on
exploration of their subscriber base, and sometimes synergistically from the burgeoning size of that
base, but I suspect* that in the case of our telcos, sometimes the officially documented size of that base
is dictated more by the imperatives of (future) spectrum allocation than by such pious objectives. 

*if I had access to documented proof of my suspicions, I would probably be criminally liable for concealing
evidence, so no, I do not. But I do have friends who say they have quit their jobs after being asked to certify
subscriber lists, that they could not do without incurring just such a risk

Why is the government the only alternative that come to mind when some parts of the private industry sector
turns out to have feet of clay? Are there other answers?

Of course there are. That is why groups of individuals, techies and socially conscious both alike,
congregate (increasingly online, given the opportunity) to develop new communication technologies,
using wireless spectrum or otherwise, or to reverse engineer commercial technologies whose
dissemination has so far benefited only a small percentage of humanity (and far too often, not the
individual developers, despite the saintly phrasing of arguments about 'intellectual property').
Quite easy to find such groups - they are everywhere. Some of them are responsible for better ways of doing
the same thing, and sometimes ways of doing better things. I know several here on this list are already part
of such groups, and some consider it a way of life. 

Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com
http://vvcrishna.wordpress.com

____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
     india-gii@...
To be removed from the list, send any message to:
     india-gii-unsubscribe@...

For all list information and functions, see:
     http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/india-gii


Gmane