[WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Tom DeReggi <wirelessnews <at> rapiddsl.net>
2006-01-02 20:18:22 GMT
> CP is not a middle man. CP is the VOIP CLEC providing the service.
> Someone like Reignmaker or another ISP would be the middle man.
You must have misunderstood. I was not referring to CommPartners as a middle
man. CommPartners would not deal direct with us via our terms. (Or I would
not accept their terms for doing business). So we needed to use a third
party CommPartner's reseller, which sat between Commpartners and us
(RapidDSL), nad I was referring to that third party as the middle man.
> But to say that a Reseller does not present costs to the vendor is
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that it would be less expensive
partnering with us, than a middle man reseller, because we bring more to the
table and need less attention. And that I as a reseller would also incur
costs equivellent to the costs that the wholesaler would incur. Why does
CommPartners deserve to reimbursed for those costs anymore than I deserve to
be reimbursed for my costs that I incur in the partnership, to pursue it?
> Training for one. With CP you get to send up to 4 people to classes in
Thats the last thing we need, escpecially not in Vegas. (Our wives would
kill us). We already know anything that we need to know to be efficient
selling VOIP, training is not necessary. (possibly to even deploy it). Not
that I'm saying we are a know it all. Some Commpartner specific marketing
info might be needed, but thats a cost of business. I'd argue that the cost
to fly my guys down there, and the hourly wages of my staff, that I would
pay, would be far greater than the cost of Commpartner's staff cost to
provide training, taking that they are local, and have one traininer to many
> Most of the time/effort/energy is for the first couple of orders.
> No start-up wants to use that much $$ to get 20 lines going.
> And billing (and associated collections) does have costs as well.
> Plus I won't get into the fact that LNP and E-911 are hard to automate.
> The LNP is handed off to L3. But OSS inter-operability with the 4 BOCs,
> Sprint, Alltel/Valor, and the myriad of miscellaneous independent ILECs
> and CLEC is not an easy task for Voice service.
I agree. Exactly why I prefer to partner with an existing CLEC than to build
ourselves. However a wholesaler that sees eye to eye with me, is required
before I have that option.
However, my argument is that a wholesaler's (Commpartners) costs and
challenges, no matter how technical or difficult, are no more difficult and
challenging than the obstacles that face a successful WISP. Why are their
(wholesalers) costs more justifiable to get reimbursed for than my (WISP)
costs? Anyone can become a CLEC. Not everyone can gain a strategic advantage
to reach a unique market share, nor gain access to and spectrum rights for
prime broadcast sites, or exclusive partnerships with Landlords, to reach
exclusive new markets. What a WISP offers, I consider a more rare
component, and therfore hold a higher worth. I'd also argue that the
wholesaler's costs would be much less if partnering with a worthly WISP that
has more to offer than a papertrail, such as expertise and reputation to
require less attention from wholesaler, and inside knowledge be more
effective with its subscribers. For a wholesaler to be more effiicient and
successful, they are better off partnering direct with the WISP than
controls and maintains the network. The technical advanage of doing so will
save both companies a tremendous amount over time in labor and reputation,
compared to the cost saving obtained by selection a high volume middleman to
sit between the WISP and the wholesaler.
> And if you look at the space: 1200+ providing VOIP to the EU.
> About 300+ providing retail and wholesale.
> I've watched wholesalers go BK.
> Why do you think L3 got out of it?
Levels did not get out of it, they just got out of managed PBX. They got
smart and realised the conflict of interest that existed competing agisnt
the VOIP providers that purchased origination and termination services.
Level3 was better possitioned to be wholesale origination, and not end user
services. That was an insight not a failure.
> I do see others following suit.
Thats the golden question. Whos following suit? Any other good true
wholesale options available? Otherwise, we'll need to build soon. We are
loosing to much business waiting. Gettting the CLEC status is not that big
of a deal, we have to eat that cost anyway, to prepare for our planned fiber
buildouts in upcomming years.
> On the flip side, DIY VOIP, while attractive to the hands-on people on
> this list, is not always the best method.
I agree, its not because its difficult, its because there is only so much
time in the day, so spend it doing what you do best..
> And with LNP, E-911 and federal/state fee collections, why bother when you
> can buy turnkey?
> Like Doug MacDonald says: IF you can not build it faster, cheaper and
> better, then buy it - don't build it.
I fully agree with Doug McDonald's principle. Howver, that has to be a
wholesaler with a mentaility that I see eye to eye with for it to be an
option to partner. Otherwise its to much risk. And the cost of building is
less than the risk of partnership. My view, is I need to be as valuable to
my partner, as my partner is to me, otherwsie the relationship is not
ballanced, and its jsut a matter of time before one side tries to screw the
other. It takes a lot of upfront effort and cost to launch a successful
business venture. For it to pay off, its important that its still got
revenue and the partnership alive and residuals two three years down the
road, not just during the time it takes to sign customers up. I've seen so
many partners screw each other its not even funny anymore. The first step is
to recognize each others values, and if its not there, there is no point in
> Not to keep badgering, but if voice was so easy, why did so many CLECs
Well where do we start... FCC, No enforcement of in place legislation,
sabatage, cut throat competition. Or are you saying failed at VOIP? If so,
maybe the problem is the model of VOIP in general and not just the failures
of the providers. I'd argue that the same problem applies to all competitive
businesses. I'd argue that most WISPs have failed, and only a few have built
their businesses to the stage that they could quit their day job.
> VOIP is not data at the EU space.
> They may get mad about email issues, but if dial-tone don't work, your
> name will be mud.
> Imagine having a decent network size, good reputation, happy customers.
> Then start offering VOIP and have a few unexpected issues like bad call
> quality, busy signals, dropped calls.
> Won't be long before people won't want your data product either.
> Take issue with Commodity market.
Well I understand that our goal is to make it the opposite of a commodity
market, by adding value. However, my point is that eventually there are so
many people that are going to be offering that same value, that it will turn
into a comodity market eventually. I'm not convinced that the consumers
really want the VOIP Value add pirches. At the end of the day, what most
people want is they just want the phone to ring, and to understand what the
person is saying on the other end. I'd also argue that the Intercom on
their existing PBX is the feature most used by the PBX users, (a feature
VOIP can't offer yet), and losing that value for most will outway the value
of VOIP's mobility and so on. They've been trained from day one for the
phone to be a dumb device. I know, if I were a good sales guy, I could
convince them of the value. And I'm sure CommPartner training would be full
of ideas on how to convince them on that value. But I've been there before
attempting the sale of the PCPBX over PBX. I was able to convince a lot of
people to go for the PCPBX, because all its value add, but I never had a PC
PBX customers as happy as a custoemr that stuck with their trusted LAN line
PBX. Personally, for me its not an issue of whats best for the
consumer,because personally I do not think its best for them (busiensses).
For me its about giving people what they want. And lots of businesses want
VOIP. And I need to find a way to get it to them, wether its the choice I'd
make ir not. Residential on the other hand, its a wide open market for VOIP.
I can't understand why companies like CommPartners don't see highervalue to
the residential markets. Its not about value, its about bundling. And its
where the value is most valued. Most wholesalers are all about meeting
volume of sales for managed PBX.
> You need to take a class with Gitomer.
Who is Gitomer?
> Also, remember, if you can prioritize your network for your preferred VOIP
> provider, you cannot fault the BOCs for doing the same to their network.
I have no doubt that the BOC's will prioritize their VOIP over other's VOIP.
I'm in the connectivity business not the VOIP business. I have no motive to
sell VOIP to other ISPs' customers. Thats not what I do. Isell connectivity
and then added value to that connectivity. Personally, I think selling VOIP
to others is indirect theft. I believe we like to think that its not,
because its our one big way to combat the monopolies, so we look the other
way, so not to restrict our secret weapon. But I'm happy just selling VOIP
services to our subscribers. Because I'm selling VOIP to my customers, and
BOCs are selling VOIP to theirs, performance is good for all end to end.
Maybe thats one of the reasons, that my company is not viewed as worthly a
partner, as the middle man marketing guy who's purpose is to through a bunch
of marketing at every broadband user, regardless the provider. If I'm
currently isntalling 20 new subs a month, and selling half VOIP, that may
not be good enough for the wholesalers.
But I see my value, regardless of how small the market share is that I can
cater to. I believe there is a wholesaler out there that will see the value
we bring to the table. And when we find them, they will most likely be the
one that scoops the business of all the other 7000 small ISPs across the
country, 50 subs at a time. All a sudden 50 subs for a reseller isn't all
that bad. But the idea is, today its 20 new subs a month, but one day it
will be 20 new MTUs per month. And the value proposition changes. And the
one giving us service when we are 20 subs a month is the one thats going to
provide the service when its 20 MTUs a month. Thats whats sales is about.
Its about investing in your resellers, not charging them for the right to
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc