Re: adsl released

Vandal wrote:

> I agree here.You cant compare ADSL in the States where the backbone
> providers have provisioned capacity for years to come,to  SA where we have
> an incumbent operator who's backbone has finite capacity and antiquated
> exchanges in most parts.

You most definitely can compare the two. The most important reason why 
you should is because saying "you can't compare us to anyone" usually 
means "we have special reasons for being inferior and that is ok".

The most ridiculous thing about the dire telecoms situation in this 
country is that noone in industry has done anything meaningful about it. 
When one company decides to put their balls to the wall and offer 
wireless ethernet as a transport, who takes them to court? The rest of 
the industry, not Telkom or the government. It's like little children 
fighting over toys in a sandpit.

Regards,
Graham
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Re: adsl released

Vandal wrote:

> As far as I am aware, Telkom has to cap their bandwidth as they have limited
> capacity in their exchanges to accomodate ADSL. If  300 000 people all
> dialed up at the same time and pulled 512Kbps (irrespective of the ISP)it
> could overload their exchanges.

This is just silly. Customer behaviour has long since shown that people 
are not going to maintain a 100% utilisation 100% of the time. This is 
the whole point behind sharing connections. And just because your first 
hop connection is 512kbps does not mean you will be able to saturate 
that connection. I have a 100MBps connection within my server at 
rackspace, but downloads to this box vary between 5kbps and 800kbps 
depending on who I connect to, and this is perfectly fine.

> The last time I checked, Telkom were not
> clear as to the impact ADSL would have on their capacity.The question is,
> why would Telkom want to invest in upgrading infrastrucutre to accomodate
> ADSL if they are not 100% sure that it will be profitable?

Why would it not be profitable? The only costs involved to support it 
are a DSLAM at the headend and a modem at the client, both of which are 
paid for by the client. The rest of the equipment needed (long piece of 
copper, internet connection to the headend) are already installed and 
long since paid for.

> They also have to position the product correcty so as not to compete with
> their Diginet services -where the bulk of their cash comes from to pay for
> their operations.

Re: adsl released

Vandal wrote:

> Yes,(although i agree with you) how else do you make money in a capatalist
> world with a finite market?
> when are people in SA going to realise that prices will not come down until
> the market increases significnatly.

What evidence are you basing all of this on? There is a large and 
thriving internet market in ZA despite the extremely unfavourable 
telecoms environment, and yet you claim there is no market...? Can you 
explain this?

> everyone wants expensive technology (bought in dollars paid for in Rands) in
> a country were not enough people can afford the PC's required to us the
> service.

Again, what evidence are you basing this on? Do you have any idea just 
how cheap ADSL equipment is? Can you also explain why buying something 
in dollars automatically makes it expensive? Can you also explain why 
there is an enormous PC market out there with hundreds of retailer and 
wholesalers and yet noone out there has a PC apparently? Can you also 
explain why PCs are the only devices capable of accessing the internet?

All of your points made so far have the same thinking as "all Africans 
are starving and thirsty, and have no need for such useless technologies 
such as the internet".

> To sell a service at the same price points as it is sold for in the UK, you
> need the same amount of users.

ADSL

Re: ADSL

Gary Whitecross wrote:

> <Graham Wrote>
>  >When one company decides to put their balls to the wall and offer 
> wireless ethernet as a transport, who takes them to court? The rest of 
> the industry, not Telkom or the government.
>  
> Not true Graham... every instance of Court action against Radio 
> operators has been instigated by a complaint from Telkom to ICASA... ask 
> Megawan how many times...
> when one person seems to be getting away with "illegal actions..." such 
> as 2-4Ghz Radio Lans without the appropriate licences then legitimate 
> operators have the right to voice their oposition... They then moan to 
> Telkom because if they do the same they suddenly find themselves at the 
> short end of shoddy service, non-installation and a miriad of other 
> methods used by Telkom to punish offenders.
> Telkom then askes for the details in writing and then takes legal 
> action via ICASA as it had the right to in the first place.

Which in turn means the complaint originates from the rest of the 
industry, not Telkom, as I said originally.

> Its unfair to call the industry little kids fighting in a sandpit.... If 
> you want fairness... LEVEL THE  PLAYING FIELD.

Where is the industry's combined effort in fighting the government over 
the level playing field? Surely in the light of the goals of Nepad 
someone in the industry should be going to Thabo and saying "your goal 
is to provide access to technology for all, yet your own government's 
policy keeps costs orders of magnitude times higher than is the world 
norm". Maybe this kind of stuff is happening behind closed doors, I 
don't know, but progress seems painfully slow.

Regards,
Graham
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fixing the process

On Monday 02 September 2002 08:00, Graham Leggett wrote:
> Where is the industry's combined effort in fighting the government over
> the level playing field?

It's becoming increasingly difficult to convince people they are all on the 
same side, in an industry that is become extremely difficult to remain 
profitable in because of Telkom. 

It's a bit like some members of a team figure their chances at survival are 
better if they go it alone. Sad this. It's only by all standing together 
that we'll beat it. 

> Surely in the light of the goals of Nepad
> someone in the industry should be going to Thabo and saying "your goal
> is to provide access to technology for all, yet your own government's
> policy keeps costs orders of magnitude times higher than is the world
> norm".

Yes, but the people in Government have repeatedly demonstrated:
- they do not know who the correct informed parties are
- they have their own inaccurate informed parties
- racial indifference is not a problem this government intends to solve, 
this is a matter the people must solve for themselves.
- the people were hoping the govt had a plan on the racial indifference 
issue

And Thabo does have his Technology Advisors. I suggest you write an email 
to these people, well those you can contact. For example Esther Dyson 
<edyson@...> and explain to her what the government is getting 
wrong and what they need to be doing to get things right.

Graham, please email her. Others too. Explain the situation. Offer 
solutions. I'm serious. I did.

I'm hoping that if enough people say the same general thing, and suggest 
the same general solution, then Esther and possibly others on Thabo's IT 
board will take notice of what's been said. 

The government is not listening to the people it should be listening to, 
i.e. the people who understand the Internet. 

If the government wants to understand the Internet, they need someone who 
understands the Internet to explain it to them. 

It's a fact that the people who understand the Internet the most are 
generally white. But it's also a fact that the people who most understand 
the Internet tend to have remained in South Africa when many other skilled 
people have fled for greener pastures and stronger currencies. 

The government can trust these white people. They are as glad there is a 
new government as the new government is. They are not glad the new 
government doesn't trust them. And they're trying very hard to show that 
they are good people who can teach strong skills to people who can really 
benefit from those skills. White South Africans are not out to exploit 
Africa. They really understand the need for sustainable development. 

So when the government of South Africa is prepared to listen to the experts 
explain how this Internet thing works, it should surely be sooner before 
these experts find it too difficult to stay. There is also a useful course 
for regulators given by the Link training center. If those regulators of 
the ECT bill had attended this course, they wouldn't have made the various 
errors that they did make and we might have had a law that just gave legal 
recognition to ecommerce instead of a law that sees the Internet as a 
problem which has to be solved.

opinions my own, the obvious is well quite obvious. Many people seem to be 
missing it though. 

Bretton
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LUA event invitation

Dear ioz'ers,

Please assist us in making this event a success by 
circulating this among your contacts.

Thanks in advance

Carmen

::::

You are hereby invited to attend the Linux and Opensource event 
held by the Linux Users Association from the 6th to 8th November 2002.
It is a three day event featuring comprehensive lectures and 
demonstrations on most aspects of Linux and Opensource.

Details at : http://www.lua.org.za/event 

Some of the topics are :

Basic Introduction to Linux
Firewalls using Linux 
Linux Mail Server 
Star Office - Sun Microsystems 
Linuxlab - Dr. E. Summers 
Bandwidth management, traffic shaping  
Linux as Terminal Server part I
Linux as Terminal Server part II
Advanced Mail Server Configuration  
IBM db2 - IBM  
Step by Step Building your own Linux 
cluster and Distributed Processing.
Linux Migration - Case Study - 
University of Zululand  
Proxy Servers (HTTP, SMTP, DNS, FTP, 
IP, Socks+NAT, POP3, DHCP)
Advanced DNS - Mike Lawrie
Network Penetration 101
Scripting (For Geeks)
Passive and Active Intrusion detection
Linux as Webserver
FreeBSD: and security
Migrating to Linux
SSH and remote management
Precis - Java based web development  
Testing & Skills - Presentation 
Strong Encryption
Linux Business case - ROI TCO and 
other considerations
Application Development with Linux
Linux and the desktop

AND many more !!

Please visit our website for more information. bookings can be done 
via e-mail to myself (carmen@...) or at http://www.lua.org.za/event

If this e-mail is not relevant to yourself would you please forward it
to your IT Department, or someone that you think might be interested.

Kind Regards,

Carmen Barnes
http://www.lua.org.za
carmen@...

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Re: REVOLUTION!

Graham wrote:
> Where is the industry's combined effort in fighting the government over
> the level playing field? Surely in the light of the goals of Nepad
> someone in the industry should be going to Thabo and saying "your goal
> is to provide access to technology for all, yet your own government's
> policy keeps costs orders of magnitude times higher than is the world
> norm". Maybe this kind of stuff is happening behind closed doors, I
> don't know, but progress seems painfully slow.

I nominate Graham as the official ISP delegate to the government.
*paints big red target on Graham's back*  (just kidding)

I couldn't agree with you more, Graham.  I'm just one guy, and what I say or
do has little impact.  We, as an industry, need to come together with a
common message under a common flag of trying to improve things for
ourselves.  The most common response to any sort of action in this direction
has been pretty sad, though, and most people seem to think that as long as
they're still doing business they're okay.  Apathy, complacency, call it
what you will...  that's the real enemy.  Still, I tend to be an optimist,
and I keep hoping one voice will emerge to unite us.  One ring to rule them
all and in the darkness bind them...  erm, yeah.

Unfortunately, and as was pointed out to me (quite rightly), the masses seem
to be waiting for the few "activists" to do all the hard work.  But without
support and unity among the industry, there is no single voice with enough
impact to make a difference.

That's one of the reasons I recently joined the ISPA.  I'm going to
participate as much as I can without neglecting my company, and I'm hoping
it makes a difference.

Vandal wrote:
> when are people in SA going to realise that prices will not come down
until
> the market increases significnatly.

How about...

When are the government and Telkom going to realise that the market will not
increase significantly until telecommunications prices come down?  Cut the
price of bandwidth, and you will have 10 times as many businesses online.
Cut the price of a local phone call, and more people will use the internet
more often, more businesses will do more business, and even the fringe
earners will use the phone more often.  Does anyone actually doubt the
positive impact that a healthy, thriving IT industry could have on SA?

The government's policies (especially relating to an exclusive telecom) are
severely inhibiting the IT industry's growth.  That seems pretty obvious.

The ECT bill - I'd like to think was well-intentioned at the start - will
have exactly the opposite effect that its opening paragraph proclaims.

When the I&M bill is passed, we may just see some smaller ISPs pack it in.

Admittedly, the present government isn't totally to blame for the current
condition of the SA economy, but the IT industry is suffering hard in SA
because of a weak Rand, ridiculous customs charges, and being so
geographically remote.

But, and as I started off saying, by far the worst thing the government has
done is dragging their feet on bringing competition into the
telecommunications industry of SA.

We all know these things.  They are not isolated incidents of injustice, but
rather all part of the same underlying problem: A lack of understanding (and
possibly motivation) on the part of the government.  So, what are we going
to do about it?  What can we do about it?

I suggest a start is to convince all ISPs and IT related companies to join
the ISPA, VASA, ITLF, or _____ .

And then, most importantly, actively participate in that organisation as
best you can.  If we just did that much, it would make a difference.

Darren

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RE: REVOLUTION!

Well said, Darren!

> I suggest a start is to convince all ISPs and IT related companies to join
the ISPA, VASA, ITLF, or _____ .

or ISOC-ZA.

ISPA is the SA ISP Association. Many of those on the IOZ list belong to, own
or manage ISPs. Join ISPA, and help it to make a difference. In fact, in
terms of the ECT Act, which became effective last Friday, you're a damned
fool if you operate a web server, a proxy cache or provide Internet access
or network transit services to anyone else and you don't join ISPA. Without
membership (and acceptance by Government that ISPA is a "representative
body" with an enforceable Code of Conduct) you are wide open to liability
for all kinds of nasty things.

VASA is the VANS Association. Many ISPA members are also VASA members, but
some VASA members aren't ISPs - but then you no longer have to be a "pure"
ISP to join ISPA 

ITLF is the IT Lawyers Forum - a special interest group who are very useful
to the rest of us in giving us sage advice about HOW to talk to the
Government.

ISOC-ZA is the South African Chapter of the Internet Society - the people
who "own" the Internet (Well, the trademark, anyway). ISOC-ZA represents
NON-corporate interests in the Internet. So, as Joe Public, join ISOC-ZA.
ISOC runs the IETF and the RFC Editor functions, for example.

All of these bodies work together to TRY to influence Government, with some
success in the past, I might add.

Five industry related organisations have banded together to put on "Internet
Week", from the 11th to 13th September. Go to http://www.ispa.org.za or
http://www.afrispa.org, for example, and register. Hey! It's free, and you
get lunch!

We NEED to stand together, speak together, and show that we have substantial
industry support to be taken seriously by Government. Do it, people.

Regards,

William Stucke
ZAnet Internet Services (Pty) Ltd
mailto:William@...
+27 11 465-0700

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ioz@... [mailto:owner-ioz <at> internet.org.za]On
Behalf Of Darren Miller
Sent: 2002/09/02 18:31
To: ioz@...
Subject: Re: [IOZ] REVOLUTION!

Graham wrote:
> Where is the industry's combined effort in fighting the government over
> the level playing field? Surely in the light of the goals of Nepad
> someone in the industry should be going to Thabo and saying "your goal
> is to provide access to technology for all, yet your own government's
> policy keeps costs orders of magnitude times higher than is the world
> norm". Maybe this kind of stuff is happening behind closed doors, I
> don't know, but progress seems painfully slow.

I nominate Graham as the official ISP delegate to the government.
*paints big red target on Graham's back*  (just kidding)

I couldn't agree with you more, Graham.  I'm just one guy, and what I say or
do has little impact.  We, as an industry, need to come together with a
common message under a common flag of trying to improve things for
ourselves.  The most common response to any sort of action in this direction
has been pretty sad, though, and most people seem to think that as long as
they're still doing business they're okay.  Apathy, complacency, call it
what you will...  that's the real enemy.  Still, I tend to be an optimist,
and I keep hoping one voice will emerge to unite us.  One ring to rule them
all and in the darkness bind them...  erm, yeah.

Unfortunately, and as was pointed out to me (quite rightly), the masses seem
to be waiting for the few "activists" to do all the hard work.  But without
support and unity among the industry, there is no single voice with enough
impact to make a difference.

That's one of the reasons I recently joined the ISPA.  I'm going to
participate as much as I can without neglecting my company, and I'm hoping
it makes a difference.

Vandal wrote:
> when are people in SA going to realise that prices will not come down
until
> the market increases significnatly.

How about...

When are the government and Telkom going to realise that the market will not
increase significantly until telecommunications prices come down?  Cut the
price of bandwidth, and you will have 10 times as many businesses online.
Cut the price of a local phone call, and more people will use the internet
more often, more businesses will do more business, and even the fringe
earners will use the phone more often.  Does anyone actually doubt the
positive impact that a healthy, thriving IT industry could have on SA?

The government's policies (especially relating to an exclusive telecom) are
severely inhibiting the IT industry's growth.  That seems pretty obvious.

The ECT bill - I'd like to think was well-intentioned at the start - will
have exactly the opposite effect that its opening paragraph proclaims.

When the I&M bill is passed, we may just see some smaller ISPs pack it in.

Admittedly, the present government isn't totally to blame for the current
condition of the SA economy, but the IT industry is suffering hard in SA
because of a weak Rand, ridiculous customs charges, and being so
geographically remote.

But, and as I started off saying, by far the worst thing the government has
done is dragging their feet on bringing competition into the
telecommunications industry of SA.

We all know these things.  They are not isolated incidents of injustice, but
rather all part of the same underlying problem: A lack of understanding (and
possibly motivation) on the part of the government.  So, what are we going
to do about it?  What can we do about it?

I suggest a start is to convince all ISPs and IT related companies to join
the ISPA, VASA, ITLF, or _____ .

And then, most importantly, actively participate in that organisation as
best you can.  If we just did that much, it would make a difference.

Darren

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Re: REVOLUTION!

On Monday 02 September 2002 18:30, Darren Miller wrote:
> I couldn't agree with you more, Graham.  I'm just one guy, and what I say
> or do has little impact. 

An incorrect assumption. In a medium of listeners, when one person speaks 
they tend to get heard. 

Can we cultivate the right balance amongst ourselves? People who speak 
logic in a fashion that can be understood by the masses? 

The answer is in front of you. This mailing list is an old example of the 
principle which was being taught. But too few got the lesson. And those 
that listened moved to other mediums. I see some stayed. Well, there are 
some people on this forum who have some very interesting things to say. 
They have conclusive proof that many are being robbed blind. Are those 
listening prepared to admit to themselves that they have been robbed and 
conned? 

Can the people of this forum take the time out to hear the various 
viewpoints of different people without getting upset or critical. Not 
everyone knows how to speak very well. They need patience and practice. 

I cut my mailing list teeth on IOZ. It was very kind to me during my 
education. Can it remain as kind through the education of others?

Firstly you need to convince people to use the medium. Then you have to 
gently teach them the rules for successful communication. Only then will 
they understand the power of the medium and become good listeners.

So if you can get the roleplayers in the industry talking to each other 
(instead of at each other) via a common medium, why not carry on the 
concept yourselves? Mailing lists are a great way of getting groups of 
people to communicate. Why do so many people in the industry distrust the 
value of the mailing list as a medium of communication? 

Possibly because they're sometimes noisey? Or everyone tries to speak at 
once? So read the guidelines for interaction on a mailing list. teach 
yourself how to best participate. Then get involved in a functional manner. 

> We, as an industry, need to come together with
> a common message under a common flag of trying to improve things for
> ourselves. 

That much is obvious. There have been people saying that for a very long 
time. People chose not to listen to them. Think back to who first said 
these things? Take a very careful listen at what they have to say now. 
Think about what they say, carefully. When you get the message, put down 
the phone. Talk to someone about it. Real live person interaction. Get them 
to agree. 

And then you've learnt a very valuable lesson of how things that happen in 
internet space can influence things that happen in meat space. And the 
power of the medium should become available to you. 

> Still, I tend to be an optimist, and I keep hoping one voice will emerge 
> to unite us. 

That voice has risen many times. Why did so many fail to hear it? 

I concur with William. Go to Internet Week and listen to what those people 
have to say. It's strange and difficult for some of us to interact in 
person, but we so want to communicate with everyone. 

> Unfortunately, and as was pointed out to me (quite rightly), the masses
> seem to be waiting for the few "activists" to do all the hard work.  But
> without support and unity among the industry, there is no single voice
> with enough impact to make a difference.

No, the single voices are there. What isn't is unity and acknowledgement. 

It is very difficult getting people to talk to each other as people, when 
they are operating out of a habit of competition against a single large 
foe. Convincing them to partner appropriatly is very difficult. Keeping 
them there successfully requires they learn how to do it themselves. 

You need to make an effort without the immediate promise of reward. Because 
you trust the medium and what people say on it. If you don't trust the 
medium, you'll never get to hear what individuals have to say. 

> When are the government and Telkom going to realise that the market will
> not increase significantly until telecommunications prices come down? 

Has anyone told them that in a language that they (the government or 
Telkom) can understand?

Until you learn their language, you can't teach them anything. What is the 
language of government and Telkom? Why is it so difficult to learn? 
Perhaps because it doesn't make sense? 

Well it makes sense to them, so we have to find a way for it to make sense 
to us, so we can tell them what they're doing wrong in their own terms. 

> Does anyone actually doubt
> the positive impact that a healthy, thriving IT industry could have on
> SA?

Given that we have some highly skilled individuals who have chosen to 
remain in the country I'd say the activists are working bloody hard. And 
they're doing it for free. And it's impacting on their standard of living. 

We can do so much with free tools. Why are businesses still paying for 
software? Why has no-one told them they can get it for free? In the 
language they understand?

> The government's policies (especially relating to an exclusive telecom)
> are severely inhibiting the IT industry's growth.  That seems pretty
> obvious.

That's the thing about the obvious. The most obvious thing is the most 
often overlooked. Don't make an assumption as to what is obvious. Listen to 
the person speaking. Hear them describe what they are seeing. That's what's 
obvious to them. What's obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to them. 
It may have to be spelt out in BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS before they get it. And 
try not to make them feel silly about it. That only makes them resistant to 
further education. 

> The ECT bill - I'd like to think was well-intentioned at the start - will
> have exactly the opposite effect that its opening paragraph proclaims.

Yes. And they do not know this. I intend to tell them. Will they hear what 
I say? I don't know. 

> Admittedly, the present government isn't totally to blame for the current
> condition of the SA economy, but the IT industry is suffering hard in SA
> because of a weak Rand, ridiculous customs charges, and being so
> geographically remote.

The present government has made it quite clear and obvious. They are still 
adjusting to the process of being government. They are not ready to make 
decisions for us. Thus we need to make the decisions for ourselves. We have 
the ability to make good decisions based on our familiarity with the 
medium. Let's start making good decisions for the medium. What are you 
waiting for? 

The structures are there to participate. The people who know what to say 
are ready to speak. Get involved. It starts to make sense after that. 

> But, and as I started off saying, by far the worst thing the government
> has done is dragging their feet on bringing competition into the
> telecommunications industry of SA.

Yes, and the industry hasn't made it clear enough how valuable competition 
really is. Perhaps the industry lost sight of the other players in the 
fierce act that was the game? Maybe they should be reminded it's a game. 
And if everyone plays nicely and co-operates, then the game is fun. 

> We all know these things.

No we don't. Lots of people don't know anything about the Internet. They 
discover the Internet based on what they read in newspapers and magazines. 
The media has had difficulty understanding the Internet and has been quick 
to tout it as a failure o many occasions. 

Most people don't get the Internet at all. They have to be shown it. And 
even then they often don't get it. You have to find a way to explain what 
you KNOW to them in their language. Or you need a translater you can trust 
to do it for you. There is very little trust in this country. We're all so 
bloody scared to trust each other.

> A lack of understanding (and possibly motivation) on the part of the 
> government. 

Because the government did not trust the medium which would have brought 
all the roleplayers together, they chose not to use it at all in the act of 
policy making. Thus they made policy on the basis of a great many incorrect 
assumptions. Imforming them of the facts is going to be very difficult, 
because they will not want to accept them. People do not take kindly to 
realising the error of their ways. They react with fear and distrust to 
people who inform them of the facts. And they feel silly. They don't want 
to feel silly. They want to feel power. Because they've made an assumption 
that power actually exists. 

> And then, most importantly, actively participate in that organisation as
> best you can.  If we just did that much, it would make a difference.

Agreed. That means publically supporting the people who are speaking the 
words that need to be heard. That means getting behind the individuals who 
are speaking the most sense and sharing your support of them. State where 
you stand. Only then can people mobilise troops to come to your aide. 

Bretton
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