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David Kastrup | 1 May 2009 10:54
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Re: GPL traitor !

chrisv <chrisv <at> nospam.invalid> writes:

> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:01:48 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>> 
>>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>>> 
>>>>On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 08:36:13 -0500, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>     The beauty of a gratis LiveCD is that you can "try before you buy"
>>>>> with no muss, no fuss and no risk.
>>>>
>>>>Except that a LiveCD will boot slowly, run slowly, and generally give a bad
>>>>impression of the speed of Linux to anyone who doesn't understand the
>>>>issues with a LiveCD.
>>>>
>>>>It's really a dual-edged sword.
>>> 
>>> Yeah, sure, Fuddie.  It's really rocket science to figure that out,
>>> assuming that you haven't already read it.  "Gee, it seems that my CD
>>> has to spin-up before things happen!"
>>> 
>>> "Gosh, maybe there's a speed compromise to running off a CDROM!?!?!"
>> 
>> Seriously.  99% of the computer using population would not know that, would
>> not make the connection, or would simply not care.  "It's too slow, it
>> sucks!"
>
> Seriously.  You're full of it, and you're wrong, Fuddie.  As usual, your
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David Kastrup | 1 May 2009 10:57
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Re: GPL traitor !

Rjack <user <at> example.net> writes:

> Alan Mackenzie wrote:
>
>>
>>> I seems that anyone in the World who disagrees with the FSF's
>>> interpretation of the GPL license and philosophy "misunderstands"
>>>  the GPL. Please tell us more about "misunderstanding" the GPL
>>> since we are all too dumb to understand:
>>
>> Not at all.  Plenty of sensible people who disagree with the FSF's
>>  philosophy understand the GPL perfectly well - it's not difficult.
>>  A whole wodge of lawyers at Microsoft, for instance.  Possibly
>> even yourself.
>
> Alan, I understand the GPL from the official track record for
> infringement claims filed in U.S. Federal Court by the SFLC and FSF:
>
> 1. Dismissal Without Prejudice.
>
> 2. Dismissal Without Prejudice.
>
> 3. Dismissal Without Prejudice.
>
> 4. Dismissal WITH PREJUDICE.
>
> 5. Dismissal Without Prejudice.
>
> 6. Dismissal Without Prejudice.
>
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Chris Ahlstrom | 1 May 2009 15:14

Re: GPL traitor !

After takin' a swig o' grog, David Kastrup belched out
  this bit o' wisdom:

> chrisv <chrisv <at> nospam.invalid> writes:
>
>> Seriously.  You're full of it, and you're wrong, Fuddie.  As usual, your
>> FUD does not fly.
>
> I don't think he is wrong here.  Even if you know the details, you can't
> tell what ratio of the slowness is attributable to inherent CDROM
> access, what ratio is attributable to bad paging algorithms acerbated by
> the CDROM (which would still have an impact when using hard disk), what
> is attributable to a suboptimal storage layout and what is pure OS
> creep.
>
> I am not exactly unversed with computers (having written my own
> bootstrap loaders and BIOSes and target compilers and whatnot).  And
> still I was quite unsure what difference to expect when installing
> Knoppix on hard disk as compared to running from CD.
>
> And yes, the impression "sluggish and basically not useful" can come
> from a live CD.  It is nice for a look of _what_ you can do, but it is
> hard to judge whether you would _want_ to do it in a reasonable
> workflow.

I respectfully disagree.  It's pretty easy to listen to the CD drive and
factor it out in your evaluation.  In any case, it is highly unlikely that
any user would not know about the issues of running from a CD -- and if
he/she complained about it verbally, someone would surely set them straight.
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chrisv | 1 May 2009 15:34

Re: GPL traitor !

> David Kastrup belched:
>>
>> chrisv writes:
>>
>>> Seriously.  You're full of it, and you're wrong, Fuddie.  As usual, your
>>> FUD does not fly.
>>
>> I don't think he is wrong here.  

Well then, you're wrong, too.

>> Even if you know the details, you can't
>> tell what ratio of the slowness is attributable to inherent CDROM
>> access, what ratio is attributable to bad paging algorithms acerbated by
>> the CDROM (which would still have an impact when using hard disk), what
>> is attributable to a suboptimal storage layout and what is pure OS
>> creep.

Do you really think that "ratios of slowness" need to be calculated?
Sheesh, man, you're running off a CD.  You can hear it and see the
results.  You just throw-out the results of the "speed test" because
you're running off a freaking CDROM.  NO ONE is going to assume or
expect that the speed is _at all_ representative of what it's like
when it's running off HD.

Jeezez.  Most people aren't THAT stupid, much less 99% of them.

>> I am not exactly unversed with computers (having written my own
>> bootstrap loaders and BIOSes and target compilers and whatnot).  And
>> still I was quite unsure what difference to expect when installing
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David Kastrup | 1 May 2009 16:01
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Re: GPL traitor !

chrisv <chrisv <at> nospam.invalid> writes:

>> David Kastrup belched:
>>>
>>> chrisv writes:
>>>
>>>> Seriously.  You're full of it, and you're wrong, Fuddie.  As usual, your
>>>> FUD does not fly.
>>>
>>> I don't think he is wrong here.  
>
> Well then, you're wrong, too.

And likely a "Fuddie" as well.

>>> Even if you know the details, you can't tell what ratio of the
>>> slowness is attributable to inherent CDROM access, what ratio is
>>> attributable to bad paging algorithms acerbated by the CDROM (which
>>> would still have an impact when using hard disk), what is
>>> attributable to a suboptimal storage layout and what is pure OS
>>> creep.
>
> Do you really think that "ratios of slowness" need to be calculated?
> Sheesh, man, you're running off a CD.  You can hear it and see the
> results.

And?  There are live disks that install in 15 minutes on a good system.
There are live disks that take 2 hours (take the TeXlive DVD).  There
are differences in layout and effectiveness.  As I said: the CD
exacerbates the situation.  If the result is worse than expected, it
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JEDIDIAH | 1 May 2009 17:49

Re: GPL traitor !

On 2009-05-01, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> chrisv <chrisv <at> nospam.invalid> writes:
>
>>> David Kastrup belched:
>>>>
>>>> chrisv writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Seriously.  You're full of it, and you're wrong, Fuddie.  As usual, your
>>>>> FUD does not fly.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think he is wrong here.  
>>
>> Well then, you're wrong, too.
>
> And likely a "Fuddie" as well.
>
>>>> Even if you know the details, you can't tell what ratio of the
>>>> slowness is attributable to inherent CDROM access, what ratio is
>>>> attributable to bad paging algorithms acerbated by the CDROM (which
>>>> would still have an impact when using hard disk), what is
>>>> attributable to a suboptimal storage layout and what is pure OS
>>>> creep.
>>
>> Do you really think that "ratios of slowness" need to be calculated?
>> Sheesh, man, you're running off a CD.  You can hear it and see the
>> results.
>
> And?  There are live disks that install in 15 minutes on a good system.
> There are live disks that take 2 hours (take the TeXlive DVD).  There
> are differences in layout and effectiveness.  As I said: the CD
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chrisv | 1 May 2009 18:09

Re: GPL traitor !

David Kastrup wrote:

> And?  There are live disks that install in 15 minutes on a good system.
> There are live disks that take 2 hours (take the TeXlive DVD).  There
> are differences in layout and effectiveness.  

How oddball a situation are you willing to stretch-for to make your
alleged point?

> As I said: the CD exacerbates the situation.  

Running off a CD is slow.

> If the result is worse than expected,

What might be "expected" by a newbie who has no experience in such
matters?  As soon I first heard the CD spin-up when I wanted to do
something, I would "expect" those kinds of delays when running off a CD.

You lose.

> it might point to the access patterns being worse than expected, and
> that may well reflect on the installed system performance.

Gibberish.  This is not that difficult a situation for the average
computer user to interpret.  You're just being ridiculous.

> If you don't get it, don't be sad.   At least you can sling mud competitively.

I see you can "sling mud" yourself.
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David Kastrup | 1 May 2009 18:34
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Re: GPL traitor !

chrisv <chrisv <at> nospam.invalid> writes:

> David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> And?  There are live disks that install in 15 minutes on a good system.
>> There are live disks that take 2 hours (take the TeXlive DVD).  There
>> are differences in layout and effectiveness.  
>
> How oddball a situation are you willing to stretch-for to make your
> alleged point?

That's not oddball.  That's real life.

>> As I said: the CD exacerbates the situation.  
>
> Running off a CD is slow.

Sure, but how slow?  And does this slowness make deficiencies more
apparent that are there anyway?

>> If the result is worse than expected,
>
> What might be "expected" by a newbie who has no experience in such
> matters?  As soon I first heard the CD spin-up when I wanted to do
> something, I would "expect" those kinds of delays when running off a CD.

Delays are not either there or not.  Size matters.

> You lose.
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Alfred M. Szmidt | 1 May 2009 18:44
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Re: GPL traitor !

   > As I said: the CD exacerbates the situation.  

   Running off a CD is slow.

Initially, yes, when you have read most of the data of it, it is quite
fast since the most common things will reside in memory.
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chrisv | 1 May 2009 20:07

Re: GPL traitor !

David Kastrup wrote:

> I've been working with
> various kinds of storage media since the middle of the seventies, and
> dozens of operating systems.

Good for you.  The average computer user also has a lot of experience with
the delays inherent in using CDROMs.
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