Paul | 1 Oct 01:14 2004
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Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

Hi,

> For those with sprogs, I've finally found the time to get my "Linux for Kids" 
> briefing online:
> 
> http://www.fraw.org.uk/pubs/cltcpb/cltc_pb-02.html

Nice. I disagree though over the choice of distro. Richard (my 6 year
old) has had a linux box (or access to a linux box) since he was 2 and
all of them have been RH or FC boxes. He's never had a moments trouble.

Personally, I would advise the use of FC or Mandark. I'd never recommend
Debian. I just don't like it as a distro - it certainly is easy to get
running (but then so is FC, SuSE and Mandark), but it's not as good as
it's cracked up to be. I'd prefer to use Slackware over Debian!

A while back, his box went sploogie and I needed to resort to using
gnoppix to find the problem and get things working again. Richard played
with gnoppix and found it a pain to use.

That said, he is kind of a fun with machines - his record is to take
down his schools Win2003 server system in less than 11 minutes!

TTFN

Paul
--

-- 
Homer: Donut? 
Lisa: No, thanks. Do you have any fruit? 
Homer: This has purple stuff inside. Purple is a fruit.
(Continue reading)

MJ Ray | 1 Oct 02:21 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On 2004-10-01 00:14:03 +0100 Paul <paul <at> all-the-johnsons.co.uk> wrote:

> Personally, I would advise the use of FC or Mandark. I'd never 
> recommend
> Debian. I just don't like it as a distro - it certainly is easy to get
> running (but then so is FC, SuSE and Mandark), but it's not as good as
> it's cracked up to be. I'd prefer to use Slackware over Debian!

You have the choice, so choose the right one. There are many 
situations where Debian and Debian-based distributions make a lot of 
sense. Seeing as you don't say why it's "not as good as it's cracked 
up to be"(?) then it looks a lot like FUD.

This probably isn't the right list for DistroWars though.

--

-- 
MJR/slef    My Opinion Only and not of any group I know
  Creative copyleft computing - http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
LinuxExpo.org.uk village 6+7 Oct http://www.affs.org.uk
Ian Lynch | 1 Oct 10:09 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 00:14, Paul wrote:

> That said, he is kind of a fun with machines - his record is to take
> down his schools Win2003 server system in less than 11 minutes!

Not the best way of getting people to embrace the Linux community in
schools though?

--

-- 
Ian Lynch <ian.lynch <at> zmsl.com>
ZMS Ltd
PFJ | 1 Oct 10:17 2004
Picon

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

Hi,

> > That said, he is kind of a fun with machines - his record is to take
> > down his schools Win2003 server system in less than 11 minutes!
> 
> Not the best way of getting people to embrace the Linux community in
> schools though?

That's not the point. The point is that a kid of 5 or 6 should not be
able to bring down a server system. If he/she can, then it really shows
either that the bods who put the system in place don't know what they're
doing or that the system itself is complete rubbish.

On his Linux box, all he does is login (when the system lets him, I have
an access restriction on it from 8pm to 3pm of a weekday), play on CBBC,
watch some DVDs and the such. He doesn't know the first thing about
hacking other than knowing his access level won't let him into mummy or
daddy's areas.

In the 4 years of him playing on Linux, he has managed to crash his box
twice. Once was through continually hitting reset as he'd seen my wife
do it (before I found out and made sure she didn't do it again!) which
safu'd the HD a bit and once through running some badly written code.

TTFN

Paul

--

-- 
"If I face my God tomorrow, I can tell Him I am innocent.
(Continue reading)

Ian Lynch | 1 Oct 10:39 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 09:17, PFJ wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > > That said, he is kind of a fun with machines - his record is to take
> > > down his schools Win2003 server system in less than 11 minutes!
> > 
> > Not the best way of getting people to embrace the Linux community in
> > schools though?
> 
> That's not the point. The point is that a kid of 5 or 6 should not be
> able to bring down a server system. If he/she can, then it really shows
> either that the bods who put the system in place don't know what they're
> doing or that the system itself is complete rubbish.

Its the entire point if you can see past the red mist into what actually
motivates people. Just because a kid can walk through the Head's door
and trash his office, doing so isn't justified purely on the grounds
that the Head should have been more careful or needs a better door lock.

Most adults would see such behaviour as irresponsible and likely to
transfer that view even more so to a salesman who used it to demonstrate
that the locks he was pedalling were more secure and less expensive.

The way you have written this makes it look like it was a deliberate
act. If it was a complete fluke or accident, there might be some
justification.

--

-- 
Ian Lynch <ian.lynch <at> zmsl.com>
ZMS Ltd
(Continue reading)

PFJ | 1 Oct 10:48 2004
Picon

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

Hi,

> > That's not the point. The point is that a kid of 5 or 6 should not be
> > able to bring down a server system. If he/she can, then it really shows
> > either that the bods who put the system in place don't know what they're
> > doing or that the system itself is complete rubbish.
> 
> Its the entire point if you can see past the red mist into what actually
> motivates people. Just because a kid can walk through the Head's door
> and trash his office, doing so isn't justified purely on the grounds
> that the Head should have been more careful or needs a better door lock.

I can see and understand your point. Maybe my wording wasn't the best

> Most adults would see such behaviour as irresponsible and likely to
> transfer that view even more so to a salesman who used it to demonstrate
> that the locks he was pedalling were more secure and less expensive.

If the lock was fundamentally broken so that if someone (say) turns the
handle the wrong way (which effectively is all that my son did), then a
parent would have the right to say "you brought in on yourself as it's
well known that that type of lock is rubbish and how is a 6 year to know
the problem".

> The way you have written this makes it look like it was a deliberate
> act. If it was a complete fluke or accident, there might be some
> justification.

I restrict the websites Richard can see (basically CBBC/CBeebies and
Nickjr), he cannot understand the books on my bookshelves which leads to
(Continue reading)

Ian Lynch | 1 Oct 11:21 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 09:48, PFJ wrote:

> If the lock was fundamentally broken so that if someone (say) turns the
> handle the wrong way (which effectively is all that my son did), then a
> parent would have the right to say "you brought in on yourself as it's
> well known that that type of lock is rubbish and how is a 6 year to know
> the problem".

Better to point it out though as a possible problem than actually
trashing the office to prove it ;-)

> > The way you have written this makes it look like it was a deliberate
> > act. If it was a complete fluke or accident, there might be some
> > justification.
> 
> I restrict the websites Richard can see (basically CBBC/CBeebies and
> Nickjr), he cannot understand the books on my bookshelves which leads to
> two conclusions, fluke (though it was W2K last year and W2003 this, so
> the fluke element should have been fixed) and accident.

I'm assuming this was from home in which case they do have a securty
issue. Most primary schools though do not have the resources to fix
these. Since you can protect Windows 2000/03 servers from this type of
vulnerability my solution would be to fix it for them and get them on
your side. Then later when you tell them at the next upgrade why it
would be better to use a Linux server, they are more likely to listen.

--

-- 
Ian Lynch <ian.lynch <at> zmsl.com>
ZMS Ltd
(Continue reading)

Alex Hudson | 1 Oct 11:24 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 10:21 +0100, Ian Lynch wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 09:48, PFJ wrote:
> > If the lock was fundamentally broken so that if someone (say) turns the
> > handle the wrong way (which effectively is all that my son did), then a
> > parent would have the right to say "you brought in on yourself as it's
> > well known that that type of lock is rubbish and how is a 6 year to know
> > the problem".
> 
> Better to point it out though as a possible problem than actually
> trashing the office to prove it ;-)

We are talking about kids here, though :)

I have vivid memories of the "antics" of individuals - not even those
who you might think are "hackers" - during secondary school (I.T. at
primary school - for me - consisted of limited time on BBC Bs :), on
both DOS and Windows networks. Mostly, this would be stupid stuff, but
aided by poor security. For example, when teachers threatened to find
out which person was printing pornographic images on the laser printer,
the kid simply logged in using the account of another who had moved
school the year before: their account was still active, but unused that
year, so still had the default password. Teachers found the culprit
printing the porn, and found that he had left school the previous year
and was a couple of hundred miles away.

If kids find problems with PCs, or backdoors, you can bet that they will
exploit them. I saw it in secondary school right through to sixth form,
where these kids aren't necessarily terribly interested in computers at
all. They take the "Tomorrow's World" screensaver, remove the video of
the baby swimming in water and replace it with captures from the webcam
(Continue reading)

Philip Hands | 1 Oct 11:34 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

Paul wrote:
> 
> Personally, I would advise the use of FC or Mandark. I'd never recommend
> Debian. I just don't like it as a distro - it certainly is easy to get
> running (but then so is FC, SuSE and Mandark), but it's not as good as
> it's cracked up to be. I'd prefer to use Slackware over Debian!

Well, that's well argued ;-)

An incident that happened to me this week:

My Girlfriend (who writes for several Linux magazines) asked me about 
the way that permissions for devices such as the CDROM worked, because 
she was confused while trying to work out what was going on on SuSE.

After a little research we realised that all the non-Debian systems that 
we checked use pam_console to frig the permissions as you log in, so the 
device ends up belonging to the user that just logged in, so that they 
get to use the devices.

If this concept doesn't give you a shudder of disgust, then I understand 
why you're happy with what you're using, and recommend you continue.

Of course, when you realise that (on SuSE at least) they do the same 
permissions kludge when you log in via ssh, various scenarios spring to 
mind where you can expect all your devices to go AWOL (as they get 
changed from belonging to you, to the person that just sshed into the 
box, or vice versa)

A few moments with google confirmed that RH invented this hack, that it 
(Continue reading)

Richard Smedley | 1 Oct 12:18 2004

Re: Linux for Kids Briefing

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 10:34, Philip Hands wrote:

> P.S.  I'm a Debian fundamentalist, so all my experience is filtered 
> through my distorted belief that Debian is bette

But that's not a distorted belief ;-)

Getting back to the original point on the thread: -

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 00:14, Paul wrote: 
> Nice. I disagree though over the choice of distro. Richard 

Good choice of name ;-)

> (my 6 year
> old) has had a linux box (or access to a linux box) since he was 2 and
> all of them have been RH or FC boxes. He's never had a moments trouble.
> 
> Personally, I would advise the use of FC or Mandark. I'd never recommend
> Debian. I just don't like it as a distro - it certainly is easy to get
> running (but then so is FC, SuSE and Mandark), but it's not as good as
> it's cracked up to be. I'd prefer to use Slackware over Debian!

Accepting for a moment that there are people who want to
use Free *nix distros other than Debian GNU ;-P....

Surely all parents of under-10s are /admins/, and should
decide what distro to run on the basis of their admin
preferences, as they'll be the one to fix it.

(Continue reading)


Gmane