Hi,
(reposted to dev because I'm an idiot).
On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:59 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Pedro Melo wrote something on Jaiku that made me think. (Always dangerous).
I told you not to listen to me...
His scenario was basically:
- Two (presumably) mutually subscribed resources, A and B.
- A is in Do Not Disturb. B isn't.
- A sends B a message.
- B responds with another message.
- A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being disturbed.
A couple of things strike me here:
1) A really shouldn't be auto-responding to a response.
2) This could be simplified if, when sending the initial message, A sent directed presence to B.
I was wondering if there is a potential use for the forgotten <thread> but I can't make that case yet.
Maybe directed presence in the context of a thread.
Just throwing stuff in the air...
3) Auto-responders, and possibly automatic messages in general, really ought to be marked as such, to avoid an even worse case, where B promptly auto-responds back, and a messaging loop occurs.
As it happens, in this particular case, B was in fact a bot, and cheerfully posted the autoresponse to (at least) Jaiku. It wasn't Pedro's bot, incidentally, not that it really matters.
I was curious as to what developers thought about the situation, and whether any clients do in fact send directed presence to roster people when in states such as dnd.
I think client authors should look at the disco reply of each JID. If I announce that I'm a
<identity category="client" type="bot" />
you really shouldn't be sending me auto-replies.
I think that if client authors respect this, you won't need anything else.
But I would like to see automatic messages marked somehow anyway, maybe a <x xmlns="
urn:xmpp:automatic-message' />. This would allow me to influence the display of such messages (and other things like don't store them in the archive).
Finally, if dnd really does mean Do NOT Disturb At All Ever, then I'm in raised-eyebrow territory, because I thought it meant Do Not Disturb Unless Important - since if you really don't want to be disturbed, then there's that "unavailable" presence type. But what's important is tricky - so perhaps it's an application of XEP-0155, and we negotiate that between clients.
Offline is different. Offline is "not available". DND is "available if you have agreed with me when its ok to interrupt me". It's probably the state with most social baggage we have, because it really depends on a lot of cultural baggage specific to each person.
I often understand DND as a state where I can interrupt other to ask some stuff for the task that I'm doing. And I'm willing to accept back responses, so it should be accompanied by a direct presence perhaps.
But really, this is a place where clients can be better: I can see a client that sends to offline storage the messages that where sent while on DND and when you change back to available you get "Welcome back, dave. You had 4 contacts trying to reach you while you where out. Care to see a summary of their messages?".
Also, chat windows opened to dnd contacts should have a big RED sign saying "Are you felling lucky, punk?".
Best regards,
--
Pedro Melo
Use XMPP!
Hi,
On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:59 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
Pedro Melo wrote something on Jaiku that made me think. (Always dangerous).
I told you not to listen to me...
His scenario was basically:
- Two (presumably) mutually subscribed resources, A and B.
- A is in Do Not Disturb. B isn't.
- A sends B a message.
- B responds with another message.
- A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being disturbed.
A couple of things strike me here:
1) A really shouldn't be auto-responding to a response.
2) This could be simplified if, when sending the initial message, A sent directed presence to B.
I was wondering if there is a potential use for the forgotten <thread> but I can't make that case yet.
Maybe directed presence in the context of a thread.
Just throwing stuff in the air...
3) Auto-responders, and possibly automatic messages in general, really ought to be marked as such, to avoid an even worse case, where B promptly auto-responds back, and a messaging loop occurs.
As it happens, in this particular case, B was in fact a bot, and cheerfully posted the autoresponse to (at least) Jaiku. It wasn't Pedro's bot, incidentally, not that it really matters.
I was curious as to what developers thought about the situation, and whether any clients do in fact send directed presence to roster people when in states such as dnd.
I think client authors should look at the disco reply of each JID. If I announce that I'm a
<identity category="client" type="bot" />
you really shouldn't be sending me auto-replies.
I think that if client authors respect this, you won't need anything else.
But I would like to see automatic messages marked somehow anyway, maybe a <x xmlns="
urn:xmpp:automatic-message' />. This would allow me to influence the display of such messages (and other things like don't store them in the archive).
Finally, if dnd really does mean Do NOT Disturb At All Ever, then I'm in raised-eyebrow territory, because I thought it meant Do Not Disturb Unless Important - since if you really don't want to be disturbed, then there's that "unavailable" presence type. But what's important is tricky - so perhaps it's an application of XEP-0155, and we negotiate that between clients.
Offline is different. Offline is "not available". DND is "available if you have agreed with me when its ok to interrupt me". It's probably the state with most social baggage we have, because it really depends on a lot of cultural baggage specific to each person.
I often understand DND as a state where I can interrupt other to ask some stuff for the task that I'm doing. And I'm willing to accept back responses, so it should be accompanied by a direct presence perhaps.
But really, this is a place where clients can be better: I can see a client that sends to offline storage the messages that where sent while on DND and when you change back to available you get "Welcome back, dave. You had 4 contacts trying to reach you while you where out. Care to see a summary of their messages?".
Also, chat windows opened to dnd contacts should have a big RED sign saying "Are you felling lucky, punk?".
Best regards,
--
Pedro Melo
Use XMPP!
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