Re: John Cage featured at Mode Records' series at The Stone in NYC

Re: RE: RE: Re: Re: RE: Score Size (7 Haiku, Music of Changes)

Hi,

again thinking about the fraction notation in many scores of Cage. Long 
time ago I did play the "Music of Changes" without great problems with 
them, but recently I got confused about these fractions.

Now I got it again. Sorry if this is boring for many of you, but I saw 
some are confused about it.

Cage shows reasonably what he means with these fractions with a scale he 
puts ahead of the first book of the "Music of Changes". From there you 
can see what he means. A fraction ever means the fraction of a 
quarter-note. So he writes (some examples):

4/7 over quarter-note = 4 septulet sixteenth-notes
4/5 over quarter-note = 4 quintuplet sixteenth-notes
2/3 over quarter-note = 2 triplet eigth-notes
3/5 over dotted eigth-note = 3 quintuplet sixteenth-notes
2/3 over eighth-note = 2 triplet sixteenth-notes
1/7 over a sixteenth-note = 1 septulet sixteenth-note

And so on.

Tim

Am 28.08.11 11:03, schrieb Philip Thomas:
> Hi Tim
> I don't have the scores with me to hand for a week or so now so will respond to you (in private for fear of
swamping the silence list with performer minutiae) when i can access them. However, I did make an error
with the 'whole-note' thing - that was clearly wrong (a result of converting terminology!). I don't
recall being confused about it when I learnt it, and usually the proportions are similar to other kinds of
so-called 'irrationals', such as 3:2 and 7:8.
> I'll also check the Wolff notations which are very similar but printed rather than hand written and check
the correlation there.
> I really like your description of understanding these as a player.
> Best wishes
> Philip
>   _________________________
> www.philip-thomas.co.uk
> Dr. Philip Thomas, Reader in Music
> Music Department
> University of Huddersfield
> Queensgate, Huddersfield HD1 3DH
> Tel: 01484 471336
> www.hud.ac.uk/mhm/mmt
> ________________________________________
> From: Tim Ovens [mail <at> timovens.de]
> Sent: 28 August 2011 06:31
> To: Philip Thomas
> Cc: One Man John Cage Tribute Band; silence <at> virginia.edu
> Subject: Re: [silence] RE: Re: Re: RE: Score Size (7 Haiku, Music of Changes)
>
> Philip, what do you mean with "proportion to a whole note" I do not truly
> understand. Do you mean the proportion to the next bigger value (1/3
> over an eigth-note = triplet eigth note, 2/3 over a quarter-note means 2
> triplet quarter-notes)? When it is the proportion to a whole note, then
> the written value (eigth-note, quarter, ...) makes no sense, because a 1/3
> would then ever mean a triplet quarter-note. The relation to the placing
> I do not see. For example in the 5th Haiku he writes a 4/5 over a
> quarter-note. This should be in your meaning as long as 4 quintuplet
> quarter-notes, but in the notation it takes less space than a
> quarter-beat. I still think it is the length of 4 quintuplet-eigths
> (which is 4/5 of a quarter-note). For me a clue is, that wherever he
> writes 3/4, 3/5, 3/7 he writes a dotted note. For example a dotted
> eigth. So it looks as if he means three (triplet) sixteenth-notes. On
> the other hand this is not logical, because taking serious it should be
> the three quarter length of a dotted eigth-note.
>
> Can one say that the written durations are important and logical for the
> process of writing the pieces down, but for the playing they are not?
> Especially clear this is when Cage writes several measures with only
> rests (in the Music of Changes). The rests have various values as double
> dotted whole-note rests, eight-note rests with a 1/3, .... But when
> playing I just have to count the beats in space without caring for the
> various types of rests. As a player the way of writing gives me the
> feeling of this very complicate and precise structure. And it prevents
> me from playing just "anyhow". Like science. It is too complicate to
> understand what happens in space (black holes, dark energy, expanding of
> the universe and so on), but when looking at the stars I do not need to
> know the exact physical laws. But to know about the existence of these
> laws it can make the regarding of them diferent.
>
> Tim
>
> Am 27.08.11 10:51, schrieb Philip Thomas:
>> Ah, I've always thought the fractions were symbolic of their
>> proportion to a whole note. So that eighth note rest is a triplet
>> eighth note, not a triplet sixteenth note. This would make sense in
>> relation to its placing on the page. This is a notation used by other
>> composers, Michael Finnissy being one notable example, and also
>> Christian Wolff in pieces at around the same time as the Haiku.
>>
>> What I really find fascinating in terms of the rhythm vs duration
>> debate is that the experience of the performer is so utterly
>> different from that of the listener. The pianist is  feeling these
>> accelerandos and counting/measuring the whole time but as you say the
>> effect for the listener is of a far more simply few sounding events.
>> I love this! But of course, renotating it would create something very
>> different again.
>>
>> Philip _________________________ www.philip-thomas.co.uk Dr. Philip
>> Thomas, Reader in Music Music Department University of Huddersfield
>> Queensgate, Huddersfield HD1 3DH Tel: 01484 471336
>> www.hud.ac.uk/mhm/mmt ________________________________________ From:
>> Tim Ovens [mail <at> timovens.de] Sent: 27 August 2011 06:39 To: One Man
>> John Cage Tribute Band Cc: Philip Thomas; silence <at> virginia.edu
>> Subject: Re: [silence] Re: Re: RE: Score Size (7 Haiku, Music of
>> Changes)
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> are we speaking about the same measure? (1st Haiku, 1st measure).
>>
>> But first, do we agree that, when Cage writes a fraction under or
>> over a note or rest, this means that the length of this note is just
>> the fraction of the notated value? E.g. an eigth-note with a 1/3 is
>> the third of an eigth-note, which means, it is as long as a
>> triplet-sixteenth (here I made mistake in my last message).
>>
>> Then the first measure would be like this: quarter-note rest, the
>> third of an eigth-note (= one triplet-sixteenth), sixteenth-note
>> rest, quarter-note "c", tied two thirds of a quarter-note "c" (= two
>> triplet-eigths), tied four-dotted half-note "c".
>>
>> Does Cage write anywhere anything about these fractions?
>>
>> Concerning the rhythm I agree with Philip, that at last it is no
>> real rhythm but durations. But rhythm means the segmentation of time.
>> And this we have. We have a fixed beat (which is inaudible in
>> contrast to more classical pieces). And we got a structure of time by
>> the notation. It is not the feeling of rhythm in the "classical"
>> sense. We can see this very clearly in the 1st Haiku. It looks
>> extremly complex, but at last we only hear three sounds with some
>> time between them. This I mean with non-real or non-audible rhythm.
>> In addition the changing of time (accelerando) makes the "rhythm"
>> uncontrollable for any listeners. And in addition the rhythmic
>> notation differs from the space-notation as I wrote in my last
>> comment.
>>
>> So difficult for just three sounds ...
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> Am 26.08.11 16:50, schrieb One Man John Cage Tribute Band:
>>> Hi I've been puzzling over those notations recently in Imaginary
>>> Langscape 4. Quickly, it occurs to me that the passage you
>>> describe can be renotated as: sixteenth-note rest, triplet
>>> eighth-note rest, triplet quarter-note, quarter-note, four-dotted
>>> half-note ...which makes, for me at least, more sense. Not quite
>>> sure what you mean by a non-real rhythm though. Could you expand on
>>> this?
>>>
>>> As far as the maintenance of Cage's scores by Peters Edition, it's
>>> quite clear that they just do not have the funds, man-power or
>>> time to do very much to the scores but I'm sure that if your wrote
>>> an explanatory text that could be inserted into the score, they
>>> would be very grateful. They've always been very very helpful
>>> whenever I've contacted them with Cage-related (or
>>> Ferneyhough-related) questions. John
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 26 Aug 2011, at 15:24, Tim Ovens<mail <at> timovens.de>    wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Philip, hi all
>>>>
>>>> thanks for the prompt reply. Strange, the bars in my (newly
>>>> bought) Music of Changes are 7.8 length. I found this
>>>> information: "[The] available Peters edition unwisely reduces
>>>> Cage’s original to 85% (presumably the original sheets were 12
>>>> 1/2 x 9 1/2 in.). Instead of 10cm 4/4 measures, the two-measure
>>>> systems actually span 17cm."
>>>> (http://www.lafolia.com/archive/covell/covell200604cage1951.html)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> For the Haiku the score makes sense - only that it is terrible to
>>>> read. It is beautyful but more people could and would play them
>>>> if there would be a more legible score. What I do not understand
>>>> are the remarks. They are copied from the "Music of Changes", and
>>>> just added here, right?  The rhythmic structure 3 - 5 - 6 3/4 -
>>>> ... you find in the "Changes", but not in the Haiku I suppose.
>>>> And the remark about the duration in space (2.1/2 cm is a quarter
>>>> note) also makes no sense here, shoul be 1/2 Inch = quarter note.
>>>> I think Peters should add an explaining forward. It is nice to
>>>> solve riddles, but sometimes I would like to spend more time on
>>>> playing and less on solving riddles.
>>>>
>>>> Do you, or does anyone know why the first four Haiku have the 2.5
>>>> - 3.5 - 2.5 structure (evoking the Haiku) but the succeeding only
>>>> are divided to two parts (2.5 - 6)?
>>>>
>>>> May I ask for any opinions on the realisation of the fractions,
>>>> Cage writes over or under many notes or rests, for example in
>>>> the first Haiku he writes under the first eigth-note rest 1/3. I
>>>> suppose this means that it is as long as a triplet-eigth-note
>>>> rest. After this comes a "normal" sixteenth-note rest, followed
>>>> by quarter note c tied to another quarter note c. Over this he
>>>> writes 2/3, so this tied c is as long as two triplet-note eigths.
>>>> And then again tied another c, which is a four dotted half-note.
>>>> Could one say that the lenght of this tied notes (quarter+two
>>>> triplet eight-notes+four dotted half-note) is a sort of non-real
>>>> rhythm? On one hand I have to hold the first quarter note much
>>>> longer than one quarter note (according to the space notation).
>>>> On the other hand the rhythm is inaudible because of the tiing of
>>>> the notes.
>>>>
>>>> So we can concentrate on counting as attentive as possible or we
>>>> just follow the spatial notation - also as attentive as
>>>> possible. Two ways which should be correct, one terrible
>>>> difficult, the other surprisingly simple. Such is life?
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> Am 26.08.11 14:10, schrieb Philip Thomas:
>>>>> Hi Tim
>>>>>
>>>>> My copy of Seven Haiku, from which I play, marks a unit of 1/2
>>>>> inch to be equal to MM 60. This is borne out, so that bars are
>>>>> of lengths 2.5 inches, 3.5 inches and 2.5 inches (i.e. units of
>>>>> 5, 7, 5, to match haiku). As you say, however, it does make
>>>>> reading the score very difficult and parts are indecipherable.
>>>>>
>>>>> However my copy of Music of Changes does not match Cage's
>>>>> measurements. Cage writes that quarter note = 2.5 cm and
>>>>> notates the score in bars of 4 units. However each of my bars
>>>>> is 8.6 cm length, again making the notation rather small and
>>>>> difficult to read in the most dense passages.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus my understanding is that 7 haiku is (frustratingly)
>>>>> correct but Music of Changes is a reduction in print size. Best
>>>>> wishes Philip
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _____________________
>>>>>
>>>>> www.philip-thomas.co.uk Dr. Philip Thomas Senior Lecturer,
>>>>> Music Department University of Huddersfield Queensgate,
>>>>> Huddersfield HD1 3DH Tel: 01484 471336 www.hud.ac.uk/mhm/mmt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tim Ovens
>>>>> [mailto:mail <at> timovens.de] Sent: 26 August 2011 12:59 To:
>>>>> silence <at> virginia.edu Subject: [silence] Score Size (7 Haiku,
>>>>> Music of Changes)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> for long time I have been out of this list. Can anyone tell me
>>>>> how the search in the archive is working now? For example I
>>>>> could not find any entry for the words Haiku or Changes, but I
>>>>> am sure there are any.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there any old editions with Seven Haiku or Music of
>>>>> Changes? I did contact Gene Caprioglio from Peters in New York,
>>>>> but he wrote: "8.5 by 11 inches IS the size intended by Cage.
>>>>> Is your copy 8.5x11?  The height of the staff should be a tiny
>>>>> bit over 1/8 inch.  If it is, than carry on, you have the
>>>>> correct music. If there are larger copies extant, they are
>>>>> wrong.   They should be ignored.   They were not produced by
>>>>> C.F. Peters Corporation."
>>>>>
>>>>> But in this size Cages remarks on the space and time make no
>>>>> sense. Besides this Haiku score is in parts not legible (e.g.
>>>>> no. 5), because the handwriting is smeared over by the
>>>>> diminuishing. How do you handle with this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best, Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- This transmission is confidential and may be legally
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>>>>> immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the
>>>>> content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the
>>>>> University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will
>>>>> accept no liability.
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>> If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail
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>>
>
>
> ---
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notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not
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A Year From Monday...

Re: A Year From Monday...

RE: Re: A Year From Monday...

translation for the birds

Re: translation for the birds

1) "But what really pleases me in that silent piece is that it can be
played any time, but it only comes alive when you play it.  And each
time you do, it is an experience of being very, very much alive."

2) "Well, I don't see how conceptual art differs from that attitude
which consists in refusing certain experiences in the name of a
certain discourse. That can only mean that you close yourself into a
discourse, in order not to go to the concert, or in order not to paint
in a classical or modern manner, etc."

3) "One of the last works I received was a previously unknown musical
project by Marcel Duchamp. It was given to me by Teeny Duchamp and
begins with the hypothesis of a freight train of which several cars
pass under a loading funnel; the train takes on no coal or liquid,
only notes.  That brings about a distribution of notes in different
octaves, and the production of new scales of musical sounds."

On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 1:54 PM, matthieu saladin
<matthieusaladin <at> free.fr> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I am writing to you because I have a request. I am looking for the official
> english translation of 3 short sentences in John Cage, "For the birds. In
> Conversation with Daniel Charles". If someone has this book and can take
> time to check these sentences and send them to me, I would be very very
> grateful to you.
> 1) in the end of 5th interview:
> « elle peut être jouée n’importe quand […] elle ne prend vie que lorsque
> vous la jouez. Et chaque fois que vous l’exécutez, c’est une expérience
> prodigieusement vivante ! » (French edition, p. 183-184, about 4'33'')
> The translation would be something like that: "it can be played any time
> [...] and only comes to life when you play it. And every time you perform
> it, it's a prodigiously lively experience!"
> 2) in the very end of 5th interview:
> « [...] qui consiste à refuser certaines expériences au nom d’un certain
> discours. Cela signifie simplement qu’on s’enferme dans un discours, pour ne
> pas aller au concert ou pour ne pas faire de peinture au sens classique ou
> au sens moderne » (French edition, p. 185, about conceptual art)
> The translation would be something like that: "[...] consists of refusing
> certain experiences in the name of a certain discourse. This simply means
> that we lock ourselves into a discourse in order not to go to a concert or
> not to paint in the classic sense or modern sense."
> 3) In the 6th interview:
> « L’une des dernières œuvres qui me soient parvenues est un projet musical
> de Marcel Duchamp. Il m’a été donné par Teeny Duchamp et part de l’hypothèse
> d’un train de marchandises dont plusieurs wagons passent sous un tunnel ; le
> train ne reçoit pas de fret, ou de liquide, mais des notes. Cela permet une
> distribution de notes sur différentes octaves, et la production de gammes
> nouvelles de sons musicaux » (French edition, p. 195)
> The translation would be something like that: "One of the last works to have
> arrived in my hands is a musical project by Marcel Duchamp. It was given to
> me by Teeny Duchamp, and it starts with the hypothesis of a goods train,
> with several of its wagon passing through a tunnel. The train receives never
> goods, nor liquids, but notes. This enables a distribution of notes on
> different octaves, and the production of new ranges of musical sounds."
> Thank you for your help.
> Kind regards,
> Matthieu Saladin
> Matthieu Saladin
> Chercheur associé à l'IDEAT
> Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne/CNRS
>

[OT-ish] vexations

hi

i have released a version of erik satie's vexations:
http://www.archive.org/details/vex.lt004

although this is not a work by john, he certainly helped publicize it
with his 1963 performance.

--

-- 
\js [http://or8.net/~johns/] : "What started with a kind of poetry
turned into social war." -CR

Re: RE: Score Size (7 Haiku, Music of Changes)

As the horizontal length of the staves does not correspond to Cage's
description of their length, it's fairly clear that the Peters/Henmar
edition is reduced in size.  Since Music of Changes has not been a
print-on-demand score, I suspect that they printed a large stock of the
piece at this size and are more immediately committed to selling this
stock than in producing a more playable score.

I recall talking with James Tenney about this. During his NY years in the
1960s, Tenney had wanted to play Music of Changes but had found the score
produced by Peters far too small to read.  He said that he had contacted
Peters about seeing the manuscript but was told that they only had a
reduced copy.  IIRC, Tenney even used the word "lost" to describe the
presumably larger original. Tenney figured that the only way to play the
piece accurately would be to reconstruct it from the original charts which
were then not available to him.

If Peters does not, in fact, have a larger version in its files, it
strikes me that another possibility would be to consult copies produced
before Cage signed with Peters/Henmar, for example in the David Tudor
collection. The finding aid at the Getty's collection does not give the
precise size of the Music of Changes but tellingly indicates "see also
oversized".

Daniel Wolf

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