Ralph Lichtensteiger | 2 Apr 06:54 2007
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Messiaen & Cage

Dear silencers,
thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.

"Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music… Tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." — Igor Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23

in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.

Kind regards,
ralph lichtensteiger


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Carl Heppenstall | 2 Apr 07:12 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

Ralph, Very interesting. 
 
Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a purposeful lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic or "un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get so caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art - creating music that can reach the soul. 
 
Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting with and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue to create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?
 
Best Regards,
Carl
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Dear silencers,
thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.

"Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music… Tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." — Igor Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23

in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.

Kind regards,
ralph lichtensteiger


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Rob Haskins | 2 Apr 15:52 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

I think that the idea of "anti-organization" in Cage is very misleading.  It makes people assume that there is no organization at all, whereas I think what Cage was after was to produce a kind of organization that wouldn't lead listeners to experience one and the same organization, but instead discover many possible organizations worthy of their attention. 

Rob
 

Rob Haskins
Assistant Professor of Music
University of New Hampshire
rob_haskins <at> yahoo.com
http://robhaskins.net

"Heroism doesn't consist in brilliantly combatting someone else. . . .  What is heroic is to accept the situation in which you find yourself."  -- John Cage



----- Original Message ----
From: Carl Heppenstall <Heppenstall_at_KC <at> msn.com>
To: silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Ralph, Very interesting. 
 
Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a purposeful lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic or "un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get so caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art - creating music that can reach the soul. 
 
Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting with and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue to create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?
 
Best Regards,
Carl
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Dear silencers,
thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.

"Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music… Tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." — Igor Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23

in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.

Kind regards,
ralph lichtensteiger


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David P Miller | 2 Apr 18:35 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

Hello, Carl --

I'm curious to know a little bit more about what you mean:

On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Carl Heppenstall wrote:

> Ralph, Very interesting.
>
> Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a purposeful
lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic or
"un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get so
caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art -
creating music that can reach the soul.
>
> Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting with
and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue to
create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?

Do you really mean that Cage's work has been "accomplished" for good and 
all, for all persons and all time (just to put it starkly)? Aside from the 
fact that he passed away, I mean.

> Best Regards,
> Carl

Thanks,

David M.
dpmiller <at> world.std.com

>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Ralph Lichtensteiger<mailto:lichtconlon <at> t-online.de>
>  To: silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu<mailto:silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu>
>  Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:54 PM
>  Subject: [silence] Messiaen & Cage
>
>
>  Dear silencers,
>  thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
>  They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
>  The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.
>
>
>  "Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music… Tonal elements become music only by
virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." — Igor
Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23
>
>
>  in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.
>
>
>  Kind regards,
>  ralph lichtensteiger
>  http://del.icio.us/lichtconlon<http://del.icio.us/lichtconlon>
>  http://time4time.blogspot.com/<http://time4time.blogspot.com/>
>  http://www.lichtensteiger.de/<http://www.lichtensteiger.de/music_room.html>
>
>
>
>  --
>  To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
>  You can find searchable list archives at http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/

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Glenn Freeman | 2 Apr 19:19 2007

Re: Messiaen & Cage

Yes. It seems employing chance procedures to produce very strictly  
organized music is what Cage did.

With Schoenberg and Messiaen the procedures were different, but  
sometimes the results might end up sounding similar. Trying to  
transcribe bird calls into music, for instance, might be viewed as a  
quasi-chance/serial procedure.

Rob Haskins wrote:

> I think that the idea of "anti-organization" in Cage is very  
> misleading.

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Kraig Grady | 2 Apr 20:01 2007

Re: Messiaen & Cage

Xenakis shows how 'chance' produces structure also.
 If what you wanted was "entropy" you would need a myriad of 
irreconcilable ordering systems.
Rudolf Arnheim's small little 65 page book "Entropy and Art" deals quite 
well with the fact that homogeneous randomness is anything but Entropy.
 I would be curious if Cage ever changed his "methods" within a single piece

Glenn Freeman wrote:
> Yes. It seems employing chance procedures to produce very strictly  
> organized music is what Cage did.
>
> With Schoenberg and Messiaen the procedures were different, but  
> sometimes the results might end up sounding similar. Trying to  
> transcribe bird calls into music, for instance, might be viewed as a  
> quasi-chance/serial procedure.
>
> Rob Haskins wrote:
>
>   
>> I think that the idea of "anti-organization" in Cage is very  
>> misleading.
>>     
>
> --
> To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
> You can find searchable list archives at http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/
>
>
>   

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-- 
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

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Ralph Lichtensteiger | 2 Apr 20:30 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

dear Rob,

you are absolutely right, "anti-organization" is a misleading characterization.
What I mean is that Cage's music after 1940 (his non-intentional, chance operation technique orientated music)
refused a particular "approach" or "philosophy of organization of the sonorous material. The still traditional "form" of organisation of sound, even in serialism and/or dodecaphony, handled the material basically in a comparable way as Wagner or Alexander Scriabin did - the composer tried to more or less anticipate the music in his head during the process of composition/writing. I think Cage's "approach" was to integrate the sounding, the performance into the process of composition/writing - in order to destroy the autonomy of the "result" as an arefact.

Another aspect came to my mind today:

Cage: 
the ordinary, the profane, the raw, the beauty of the profane

Messiaen:
the sacral, the holy (saint), the beauty of the sublimated

Messiaen's music is more like a Mark Rothko painting (ampleness, depth, opulence, earnestness, aristocratic, festivity)
Cage's music is more like a Joseph Beuys object (rawboned, provisorily, humor - J. Joyce, unspectacular, "street smart")

Pardon for the weird english.

Kind regards,
ralph lichtensteiger


On Apr 2, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Rob Haskins wrote:

I think that the idea of "anti-organization" in Cage is very misleading.  It makes people assume that there is no organization at all, whereas I think what Cage was after was to produce a kind of organization that wouldn't lead listeners to experience one and the same organization, but instead discover many possible organizations worthy of their attention. 

Rob
 

Rob Haskins
Assistant Professor of Music
University of New Hampshire
rob_haskins <at> yahoo.com
http://robhaskins.net

"Heroism doesn't consist in brilliantly combatting someone else. . . .  What is heroic is to accept the situation in which you find yourself."  -- John Cage



----- Original Message ----
From: Carl Heppenstall <Heppenstall_at_KC <at> msn.com>
To: silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 1:12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Ralph, Very interesting. 
 
Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a purposeful lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic or "un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get so caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art - creating music that can reach the soul. 
 
Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting with and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue to create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?
 
Best Regards,
Carl
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:54 PM
Subject: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Dear silencers,
thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.

"Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music… Tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." — Igor Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23

in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.

Kind regards,
ralph lichtensteiger


--
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You can find searchable list archives at http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/

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Franz Fuchs | 4 Apr 19:47 2007
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Night After Night: "A Promenade in 88 Keys and 300 Years"

(I hope this hasn't been mentioned already.)

On his weblog "Night After Night", Steve Smith (TONY, NYT) writes about
French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard's concert evening "A Promenade in
88 Keys and 300 Years" in which Cage's 4' 33" played an important role.
Smith thinks that Aimard managed to reinvent the piece:

http://tinyurl.com/ynthvf

or

nightafternight.blogs.com/night_after_night/2007/04/epiphany.html

And here's an example of Smith's eclectic taste, as on one day he
attends concerts ranging from Coleridge-Taylor Perkinson string quartets
to the latest Anthony Braxton project:

http://tinyurl.com/2thuw6

or

nightafternight.blogs.com/night_after_night/2007/04/music_music_mus.html

Best regards
Franz Fuchs
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Anthony_BRAXTON/

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Carl Heppenstall | 5 Apr 14:04 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

Hi, David,
 
I did not intend to dismiss the purposeful lack of organization of some forms of serialism or chance operations, nor did I mean to imply that "cage is done."  I was merely reflecting that for me, when people create music with the intent on making perfect systems that destroy the perception of organization, the consequence is often music that can only be appreciated for the technical aspects, and for me, have very little of what I enjoy hearing in music that is created out of the stillness to which Cage often indirectly referred.
 
Thanks,
Carl
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [silence] Messiaen & Cage

Hello, Carl --

I'm curious to know a little bit more about what you mean:

On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Carl Heppenstall wrote:

> Ralph, Very interesting.
>
> Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a purposeful lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic or "un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get so caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art - creating music that can reach the soul.
>
> Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting with and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue to create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?

Do you really mean that Cage's work has been "accomplished" for good and
all, for all persons and all time (just to put it starkly)? Aside from the
fact that he passed away, I mean.

> Best Regards,
> Carl

Thanks,

David M.
dpmiller <at> world.std.com

>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Ralph Lichtensteiger<mailto:lichtconlon <at> t-online.de>
>  To: silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu<mailto:silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu>
>  Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 11:54 PM
>  Subject: [silence] Messiaen & Cage
>
>
>  Dear silencers,
>  thank you all for your great comments about Messiaen & Cage.
>  They are very helpful and inciting for me. Thanks a lot !
>  The antagonism (antithesis) Cage / Messiaen opens a wide range of interesting thoughts.
>
>
>  "Natural sounds suggest music to us, but are not yet themselves music. Tonal elements become music only by virtue of their being organized, and that such organization presupposes a conscious human act." - Igor Stravinsky: Poetics of Music, Harvard University Press, 1942, S. 23
>
>
>  in opposition to Cage's "anti-organization" of sound.
>
>
>  Kind regards,
>  ralph lichtensteiger
http://del.icio.us/lichtconlon<http://del.icio.us/lichtconlon>
http://time4time.blogspot.com/<http://time4time.blogspot.com/>
http://www.lichtensteiger.de/<http://www.lichtensteiger.de/music_room.html>
>
>
>
>  --
>  To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
>  You can find searchable list archives at http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/
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David P Miller | 5 Apr 14:15 2007
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Re: Messiaen & Cage

Hello, Carl --

Yes, now I see what you mean. Thank you!

Best wishes,

David

On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, Carl Heppenstall wrote:

> Hi, David,
>
> I did not intend to dismiss the purposeful lack of organization of some forms of serialism or chance
operations, nor did I mean to imply that "cage is done."  I was merely reflecting that for me, when people
create music with the intent on making perfect systems that destroy the perception of organization, the
consequence is often music that can only be appreciated for the technical aspects, and for me, have very
little of what I enjoy hearing in music that is created out of the stillness to which Cage often indirectly referred.
>
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: David P Miller<mailto:dpmiller <at> world.std.com>
>  To: Carl Heppenstall<mailto:Heppenstall_at_KC <at> msn.com>
>  Cc: silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu<mailto:silence <at> list.mail.virginia.edu>
>  Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:35 AM
>  Subject: Re: [silence] Messiaen & Cage
>
>  Hello, Carl --
>
>  I'm curious to know a little bit more about what you mean:
>
>  On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Carl Heppenstall wrote:
>
>  > Ralph, Very interesting.
>  >
>  > Generally, the organization and nature of the organization probably interests me more than a
purposeful lack of organization, but in the end, however the music is created, it must reflect our chaotic
or "un-conscious" interaction with the natural stillness of the universe for me to enjoy it.  Often we get
so caught up in the technical mastery of what is getting created and we lose one of the purposes of art -
creating music that can reach the soul.
>  >
>  > Cage did his work at getting us to listen to the natural stillness and the space and things interacting
with and underlying our consciousness, but once that mission was accomplished, why do we need to continue
to create similar art that merely points to the thing but is not reflective of the thing?
>
>  Do you really mean that Cage's work has been "accomplished" for good and
>  all, for all persons and all time (just to put it starkly)? Aside from the
>  fact that he passed away, I mean.
>
>  > Best Regards,
>  > Carl
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  David M.
>  dpmiller <at> world.std.com<mailto:dpmiller <at> world.std.com>

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Gmane