Lowell Cross | 1 Apr 01:05 2002
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To Clemens Gresser

Hello Clemens,

I do not seem to have your correct email address.  Please ping me 
off-list so that I can send you my congratulations for your recent 
award.  

Thank you,

LC

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Hira DOGRUL | 2 Apr 09:56 2002
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a question

Hi there,
 
I need your remarks again. There is one thing i couldn't
be sure:
yes, we know that Cage tried everything to "provide
a music free from one's memory and imagination".
On the other hand, as also J. Pritchett pointed out,
he didn't just accepted all the results of the
change operations, in some cases he didn't LİKE
this results and started all the process again.
Pritchett interpreted this as "That Cage chose one
set of questions over another was purely a matter of
taste and style". So, has Cage had a dilemma at this
point? Has Cage in some cases really couldn't escape
from his likes and dislikes?
Pritchett also says that, Cage is not just a "music
philosopher" but a real composer because he sometimes
didn't like those results and start everything all over
again to "form the basis of his own distinctive, unique
and very beatiful musical style". How is it possible
to talk the beauty of a composition when it is
created by purely random technics? 
 
I hoped these hadn't discussed before,
thanks.
 
hira
 
 
 
 
 
Caleb T. Deupree | 2 Apr 12:38 2002
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Re: a question

I'm not a sports fan but I play one at the office.  Sometimes a competitive
sporting event provides moments of stunning beauty, almost like a ballet,
where the players and the ball interact in unpredictable ways to produce
the occasional sublime moment.  If we admit that this can happen, then we
also probably admit that it happens more often in some sports than in
others, and if we like sports, it's the sports where this ballet happens
more often that we like the most.  One could even say that the rules of
these particular sports are more conducive to producing these moments of
beauty than the rules of other sports that produces fewer moments of beauty.

The rules that Cage set up to produce his moments of beauty are like the
rules of the sport that we like.  Sometimes Cage made up a set of rules or
constraints (or whatever you want to call them), produced a musical piece,
and found no moments of beauty therein, so rather than just discard the
piece, he discarded the entire set of rules.  Personally, I find the beauty
in many of Cage's work undeniable, and sometimes I think it would be
interesting to find the set of rules that he used (say, for the number
pieces) and produce a piece of my own.  

At 10:56 AM 4/2/02 +0300, Hira DOGRUL wrote: 
>>>>
Pritchett also says that, Cage is not just a "music
philosopher" but a real composer because he sometimes
didn't like those results and start everything all over
again to "form the basis of his own distinctive, unique
and very beatiful musical style". How is it possible
to talk the beauty of a composition when it is
created by purely random technics? 
<<<<

--

Caleb Deupree
cdeupree <at> erinet.com
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Rob Haskins | 2 Apr 16:23 2002
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Re: a question

What Cage didn't "like" in the story you
relate, as I understand it, was the way in
which the results produced music that was
not "unfamiliar" enough.  His aim was always
to come up with music that he had never heard,
something unusual and unexpected.  As to
the question of "beauty," Cage was sometimes
skeptical about "beauty"--in _Musicage_, he
says that beauty can keep a piece of art or
music purely in the realm of "art," whereas
his aim was for work that merged with life
and thus made you more aware of the life
around you.  (He cites Duchamp's work as
exemplary in this regard.)  Yet of course
he was sometimes struck by the beauty of
his work--"I'm finally writing beautiful
music," he said of the Number Pieces.  
There are paradoxes here, yes, but
I don't think that these paradoxes are 
"dilemmas" or that they somehow invalidate 
Cage's aesthetic and compositional methods.

I've been re-reading _Musicage__ recently
and I find it a wonderful introduction to Cage.  
I recommend it.

Rob

--- Hira DOGRUL <hira.dogrul <at> bilten.metu.edu.tr> wrote:

> yes, we know that Cage tried everything to "provide
> a music free from one's memory and imagination".
> On the other hand, as also J. Pritchett pointed out,
> he didn't just accepted all the results of the
> change operations, in some cases he didn't LIKE
> this results and started all the process again.
> Pritchett interpreted this as "That Cage chose one
> set of questions over another was purely a matter of
> taste and style". So, has Cage had a dilemma at this
> point? Has Cage in some cases really couldn't escape
> from his likes and dislikes? 
> Pritchett also says that, Cage is not just a "music
> philosopher" but a real composer because he sometimes
> didn't like those results and start everything all over
> again to "form the basis of his own distinctive, unique
> and very beatiful musical style". How is it possible
> to talk the beauty of a composition when it is
> created by purely random technics? 

=====
Rob Haskins                 Eastman School of Music
rob_haskins <at> yahoo.com

"Heroism doesn't consist in brilliantly combatting
   someone else. . . .  What is heroic is _to
   accept the situation in which you find yourself._"
    -- John Cage

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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CM Sunday | 2 Apr 18:04 2002
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Re: silence-digest V1 #384

I have an online esssay on Cage, with URL's of his works, works about him, 
and works relating to his era.  Please see:

http://www.geocities.com/conniesunday/JohnCage.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Connie's Violin Page
http://www.geocities.com/conniesunday/
Vegan Lifestyles
http://www.geocities.com/cmsunday2002/vegan.html

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Trigonometry G | 3 Apr 21:14 2002
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Four6 / freedom

I joined this group a bit ago as a Cage novice, so to speak, and have found 
the discussions fascinating. I own SILENCE and EMPTY WORDS, and I also own 
recordings of EUROPERAS 3&4, CITY WEARS A SLOUCH HAT, INDETERMINACY, some 
piano and prepared piano works, some percussion works... As you can see, I 
have a ways to go, but I am prepared to learn as much as possible.

Just recently I purchased Sonic Youth's GOODBYE 20TH CENTURY double disc 
set, and on it is, along with two takes of his "Six," a performance of 
"Four6." Can anyone describe this piece to me? I love finding out the 
process and technique that goes into composing Cage's pieces, and I can't 
find a single thing on this one. The only thing Allclassical.com tells me is 
that it is "for any means of producing sounds." I also know that it was 
written for William Winant, who is one of the performers on the recording. 
Thanks to anyone who can educate me.

Also, on the recent topic of Cage supposedly "freeing himself" from ego or 
taste, while similarly throwing things out he did not like: There's a quote 
by him which seems to apply here, from an interview conducted by William 
Duckworth in the collection of interviews called TALKING MUSIC. Cage says 
that he has no use for his recordings, but at the same time, he endorses and 
supports them. Duckworth asks, "Isn't that contradictory?" and Cage answers, 
"Yes... I'm not bothered by contradictions. Inconsistency, as we know from 
Emerson, is not a bad thing."

I feel as if his contradictions were that of a self-aware, organic, 
spontaneous human being. They were contradictions that seemed to live in 
harmony rather than hypocritically. Cage realized there are things he liked 
and did not like, but his ideal was of a listening with no likes or 
dislikes. Therefore, his role as a composer seemed to be somewhat like the 
role of a teacher: making music that would, to him, most successfully free 
the listener from their constraints, to prove that everything is in fact 
music.

-spencer

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André Chaudron | 4 Apr 20:53 2002
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Re: Four6 / freedom

Dear Spencer and others,

There is an interesting article in liner notes of the CD of 'Galerie Rupert
Walser' (including Four6 in a version for four cello's and One12. For
details see my discography: http://home.wish.net/~chaudron/cage.html),
written by Martin Erdmann. I could send it to you, although it is written in
German. If you don't speak this language I might translate it, but this will
take some time.

Regards from André Chaudron

----- Original Message -----
From: Trigonometry G <slaphim <at> hotmail.com>
To: <silence <at> metatronpress.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 9:14 PM
Subject: [silence] Four6 / freedom

> I joined this group a bit ago as a Cage novice, so to speak, and have
found
> the discussions fascinating. I own SILENCE and EMPTY WORDS, and I also own
> recordings of EUROPERAS 3&4, CITY WEARS A SLOUCH HAT, INDETERMINACY, some
> piano and prepared piano works, some percussion works... As you can see, I
> have a ways to go, but I am prepared to learn as much as possible.
>
> Just recently I purchased Sonic Youth's GOODBYE 20TH CENTURY double disc
> set, and on it is, along with two takes of his "Six," a performance of
> "Four6." Can anyone describe this piece to me? I love finding out the
> process and technique that goes into composing Cage's pieces, and I can't
> find a single thing on this one. The only thing Allclassical.com tells me
is
> that it is "for any means of producing sounds." I also know that it was
> written for William Winant, who is one of the performers on the recording.
> Thanks to anyone who can educate me.
>
> Also, on the recent topic of Cage supposedly "freeing himself" from ego or
> taste, while similarly throwing things out he did not like: There's a
quote
> by him which seems to apply here, from an interview conducted by William
> Duckworth in the collection of interviews called TALKING MUSIC. Cage says
> that he has no use for his recordings, but at the same time, he endorses
and
> supports them. Duckworth asks, "Isn't that contradictory?" and Cage
answers,
> "Yes... I'm not bothered by contradictions. Inconsistency, as we know from
> Emerson, is not a bad thing."
>
> I feel as if his contradictions were that of a self-aware, organic,
> spontaneous human being. They were contradictions that seemed to live in
> harmony rather than hypocritically. Cage realized there are things he
liked
> and did not like, but his ideal was of a listening with no likes or
> dislikes. Therefore, his role as a composer seemed to be somewhat like the
> role of a teacher: making music that would, to him, most successfully free
> the listener from their constraints, to prove that everything is in fact
> music.
>
> -spencer
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
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Alfred P.Crumlish | 5 Apr 01:22 2002
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(unknown)

unsubscrive silence alfred.crumlish <at> usa.net

-----------------------------------------------------------
Exit, pursued by a bear, 

Alfred P. Crumlish
from swerve of shore to bend of bay
http://www.bendofbay.org

"How far my efforts agree with those of other philosophers
I will not decide. Indeed what I have here written makes no
claim to novelty in points of detail; and therefore I give
no sources, because it is indifferent to me whether what I
have thought has already been thought before me by another."
 - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Joseph Zitt | 5 Apr 07:05 2002

Re: Four6 / freedom

On Wed, Apr 03, 2002 at 11:14:01AM -0800, Trigonometry G wrote:

> Just recently I purchased Sonic Youth's GOODBYE 20TH CENTURY double disc 
> set, and on it is, along with two takes of his "Six," a performance of 
> "Four6." Can anyone describe this piece to me? I love finding out the 
> process and technique that goes into composing Cage's pieces, and I can't 
> find a single thing on this one. The only thing Allclassical.com tells me is 
> that it is "for any means of producing sounds." I also know that it was 
> written for William Winant, who is one of the performers on the recording. 
> Thanks to anyone who can educate me.

From the notes to Four^6 {as shown in "John Cage: Writer", pg 205):

For any way of producing sounds (vocalization, singing, playing of an
instrument or instruments, electronics, etc). Choose twelve different
sounds with fixed characteristics (amplitude, overtone structure,
etc.)."

Players define twelve such ways of sounding. The score has a series of
time brackets, each with a number indicating which of the twelve to use.

As I understand the score (having performed it a few times), the Sonic
Youth recording, while useful in publicizing the composers, is a poor
rendition of the piece. Much of the performance, to my ears does not
fit the parameter of having "fixed characteristics": I hear repeated
sounds, loops, rhythms, all sorts of changes in the sounds, and, if I
recall, storytelling. Even worse, the recording doesn't even have four
performers: with separate renditions happening to the right and left,
it is twice as dense as what Cage composed.

A much better performance is on the CD "John Cage at Summerstage" on
the Music and Arts label, featuring Winant, Joan La Barbara, Leonard
Stein, and Cage himself. There's also a beautiful sounding rendition
on the Galerie Rupert Walser CD Andre mentioned, though (grumpily,
again) I don't think it appropriate to have a single player
overdubbing all the parts.

--

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Joseph Zitt | 5 Apr 07:30 2002

Re: Four6 / freedom

On Thu, Apr 04, 2002 at 11:05:39PM -0600, Joseph Zitt wrote:

> As I understand the score (having performed it a few times), the Sonic
> Youth recording, while useful in publicizing the composers, is a poor
> rendition of the piece. Much of the performance, to my ears does not
> fit the parameter of having "fixed characteristics": I hear repeated
> sounds, loops, rhythms, all sorts of changes in the sounds, and, if I
> recall, storytelling.

Listening to it again, I don't hear the storytelling. Mea culpa. (Was it
in another track that Kim Gordon rambles on about Goldilocks?)

--

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