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Udo van der Meer | 1 Nov 2007 01:21

RE: Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

Andras,

For piezos PU = bridge, so only 2 signals are used - correct?

Udo

---- a.szalay <at> t-online.hu wrote: 
> Almost correct, except that the wave is tranversal, not longitudinal.
> There are two waves, not one:
> 1: pick->fret->PU
> 2: pick->PU->bridge->PU
> From the three PU signals many information can be extracted.
> 
> Btw. this is the of course the AXON method, not the Roland GR-33.
> 
> Andras Szalay
> 
> 
> 
> To:             	<midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com>
> From:           	"Michael Glaviano" <michaelg <at> xilinx.com>
> Date sent:      	Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:14:22 -0600
> Subject:        	RE: [midiguitar] Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method
> Send reply to:  	midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com
> 
> > I believe that folks are talking about a longitudinal wave traveling
> > from the hex pickup to the fret & back.  I could imagine all sorts of
> > transients fanning out from the point in time of string attack.  Someone
> > mentioned a polarity reversal at the fretted note.  If the hex pickup
> > detects a signal & then some time (measured in fractions of a
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a.szalay | 1 Nov 2007 08:49
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RE: Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

A good question Udo. It points immediately to the problem in my
explanation. I wanted to be very simple, and my explanation happened 
to be inaccurate. The correct explanation is:

1: pick->fret->bridge
2: pick->bridge->fret->bridge

In case of electromagnetic PU we get two closely spaced signals with
opposite polarity, whenever a pulse hits the bridge, so there are 6 pulses
altogether. In case of piezo PU we get three pulses. 

Andras

> Andras,
> 
> For piezos PU = bridge, so only 2 signals are used - correct?
> 
> Udo
> 
> ---- a.szalay <at> t-online.hu wrote: 
> > Almost correct, except that the wave is tranversal, not longitudinal.
> > There are two waves, not one:
> > 1: pick->fret->PU
> > 2: pick->PU->bridge->PU
> > From the three PU signals many information can be extracted.
> > 
> > Btw. this is the of course the AXON method, not the Roland GR-33.
> > 
> > Andras Szalay
> >
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gregor_malecha | 1 Nov 2007 11:47
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Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

Andras gave us such an excellent descriptive explanation of the 
principle of transient measuring back in Febrary 2004 in
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/14827
(... Stretch a long rope between two trees. ...)

Additional explanation from Andras (Dec. 2005) in
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/19367

:^) Greg
________________________________

--- In midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com, a.szalay <at> ... wrote:
>
> A good question Udo. It points immediately to the problem in my
> explanation. I wanted to be very simple, and my explanation 
> happened to be inaccurate. The correct explanation is:
> 
> 1: pick->fret->bridge
> 2: pick->bridge->fret->bridge
> 
> In case of electromagnetic PU we get two closely spaced signals with
> opposite polarity, whenever a pulse hits the bridge, so there are 6 
> pulses altogether. In case of piezo PU we get three pulses. 
> 
> Andras
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> > Andras,
> >
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Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke | 1 Nov 2007 15:19

A Pleading to Trim your Posts, Gentlemen and Ladies

For the benefit of me and anyone else who receives
this list in digest format, and surely for the
benefit of everyone no matter the format,
may I once again plead with you -

Please trim your posts.

I'm looking at a post this morning which
top posted ONE short sentence above three-hundred
lines of several previous poster text. Those 300
lines included siglines, yahoo ads, legal disclaimers
from posters several replies ago, header info etc.

The downside of not trimming is that some will see
all the screen confusion and simply not read. Then
you might not get the answer or comment that you
need/want/dread.

The upside of NOT trimming...Well, there is no
upside.

Lumpy

In Your Ears for 40 Years
 www.LumpyMusic.com

--to unsubscribe send a blank message to midiguitar-unsubscribe <at> yahoogroups.com-- 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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DANNY BULLO | 1 Nov 2007 18:20
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Favicon

Re: Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

Thank you all guys!!

By the way, what is the name of the physic phenomenon of "stretch a long rope between two trees. Quickly hit on
the rope close to one of
 the trees. You will see a wave running towards the other tree, and then turning
 back, and coming back to you with other polarity."
sis that from "string theory"? I can find it in the web. I woul like to inform me more about this process... Any info?

Again...thanks.

Danny Bullo

gregor_malecha <gregor-malecha <at> tiscali.de> wrote: Andras gave us such an excellent descriptive
explanation of the 
principle of transient measuring back in Febrary 2004 in
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/14827
(... Stretch a long rope between two trees. ...)

Additional explanation from Andras (Dec. 2005) in
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/19367

:^) Greg
________________________________

--- In midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com, a.szalay <at> ... wrote:
>
> A good question Udo. It points immediately to the problem in my
> explanation. I wanted to be very simple, and my explanation 
> happened to be inaccurate. The correct explanation is:
>
(Continue reading)

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KEVIN LAWTON | 1 Nov 2007 20:38

Re: AXON Tracking Method (was Roland GR-33 Tracking Method )

I think the point is that the pick noise is not CYCLIC.   
There remains the problem that the time taken for the pick noise to travel up the string to the fret and then
back down to the pickup is going to be dependant upon several other factors than just which fret is being
used to stop the string. One of these factors is the position at which the string is picked. In fact,
carefull measurement of the time difference between the direct pick sound and that reflected from the
fret could be used to determine the picking position, all other things being equal.  In the extreme
situation of the player indulging in two-finger 'tapping' such a system would go completely doolally !    
Kevin.   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   
Doctor Oakroot <doctor <at> doctoroakroot.com> wrote:                               Your premise that the pick noise is unpredictable is
wrong. It predictably
 transits the length of the string.

 > Michael: Let's start from the base that the initial PICK transient is a
 > noise. Physically means that there is no relationship between all
 > components/ harmonics. So it means that the waveform is not periodic and
 > is completely unpredictable. So, there must be a "PARAMETER" in that
 > initial noise that changes based on the note played. The question is, WHAT
 > THAT PARAMETER IS? it the harmonic content of the noise?  How does the
 > axon measure that? I couldn’t distinguish that in my analysis.
 >   It is interesting to know that, because the knowledge could be user for
 > a further software version.
 >   Axon is fast ‘cos it doesn’t wait the full cycle to know what note is.
 > So it makes some trick with trick with the initial noise for SURE. I
 > would be more that happy if anyone can explain this.
 >
 >
 >   Thank you all!
 >
 >   Danny Bullo
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James | 1 Nov 2007 20:55
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Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

But you have two signals reaching the bridge:  One directly, and one 
reflected from the fretted position on that string.  I think the circuit 
looks at the difference between the direct and reflected signals.  But 
as for details I'm way out of my depth here; sorry...

James

>
>     Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method
>     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/25337;_ylc=X3oDMTJybG9janRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwMDc4MDMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDMyMDQ3BG1zZ0lkAzI1MzM3BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTM5MDU1NDk->
>
>
>
>       Posted by: "DANNY BULLO" electrobullo <at> yahoo.com
>       <mailto:electrobullo <at> yahoo.com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Roland%20GR-33%20Tracking%20Method>
>         electrobullo <http://profiles.yahoo.com/electrobullo>
>
>
>         Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:55 pm (PST)
>
> With all respect, I didnt understand the "axon" method u both have 
> described. How does it "measure" distance? The input is just an audio 
> signal (thru the HEX). As I said, I tried recording , for example, 3rd 
> fret on 1st string and 15th fret on the same string, and tried to 
> analyse the pick transiet, to see if what iwas different. And I found 
> nothing on the spectrum.
>
> It the axon can measure the distance from the picked point to the 
> bridge and to the fretted point on the string, some "SONIC" 
> information must be send depending the pick position and the fretted
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James | 1 Nov 2007 20:51
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Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

No; it's all in the electronics and is automatic.  And maybe I don't 
have it exactly right either...

James

>
>     Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method
>     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/25336;_ylc=X3oDMTJybzNyb2N0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwMDc4MDMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDMyMDQ3BG1zZ0lkAzI1MzM2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTM5MDU1NDk->
>
>
>
>       Posted by: "Ryan, David" RyanD <at> curtisinst.com
>       <mailto:RyanD <at> curtisinst.com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Roland%20GR-33%20Tracking%20Method>
>         hamerman409 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/hamerman409>
>
>
>         Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:28 pm (PST)
>
> Does this mean that one of the parameters you have to set is scale length
> (so the unit can figure out how far you should have to go)?
>
> _____
>
> From: midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com <mailto:midiguitar%40yahoogroups.com> 
> [mailto:midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:midiguitar%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> Behalf Of James
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 2:14 PM
> To: midiguitar <at> yahoogroups.com <mailto:midiguitar%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [midiguitar] Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method
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James | 1 Nov 2007 21:01
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Re:AXON Tracking Method (was Roland GR-33 Tracking Method )

No; I'm fairly certain that there IS NOT some hidden info in the attack 
noise that is used to determine pitch. As you no doubt know, the Axon 
uses pick position for other control purposes too.

James

>
>     AXON Tracking Method (was Roland GR-33 Tracking Method )
>     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/25339;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOXJxN2gxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwMDc4MDMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDMyMDQ3BG1zZ0lkAzI1MzM5BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTM5MDU1NDk->
>
>
>
>       Posted by: "DANNY BULLO" electrobullo <at> yahoo.com
>       <mailto:electrobullo <at> yahoo.com?Subject=%20Re%3AAXON%20Tracking%20Method%20%28was%20Roland%20GR-33%20Tracking%20Method%20%29>
>       electrobullo <http://profiles.yahoo.com/electrobullo>
>
>
>         Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:31 pm (PST)
>
> Michael: Let's start from the base that the initial PICK transient is 
> a noise. Physically means that there is no relationship between all 
> components/ harmonics. So it means that the waveform is not periodic 
> and is completely unpredictable. So, there must be a "PARAMETER" in 
> that initial noise that changes based on the note played. The question 
> is, WHAT THAT PARAMETER IS? it the harmonic content of the noise? How 
> does the axon measure that? I couldn’t distinguish that in my analysis.
> It is interesting to know that, because the knowledge could be user 
> for a further software version.
> Axon is fast ‘cos it doesn’t wait the full cycle to know what note is. 
> So it makes some trick with trick with the initial noise for SURE. I
(Continue reading)

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James | 1 Nov 2007 21:07
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Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method

And in case anyone is unaware, I believe Andras is the inventor of the 
Axon detection method, so we've heard it from the horses' mouth, so to 
speak. 

Thanks, Andras...

James

>
>     Re: Roland GR-33 Tracking Method
>     <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midiguitar/message/25344;_ylc=X3oDMTJydjQ2bHE1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzEwMDc4MDMEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDMyMDQ3BG1zZ0lkAzI1MzQ0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExOTM5MDU1NDk->
>
>
>
>       Posted by: "a.szalay <at> t-online.hu" a.szalay <at> t-online.hu
>       <mailto:a.szalay <at> t-online.hu?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Roland%20GR-33%20Tracking%20Method>
>         szalay_andras <http://profiles.yahoo.com/szalay_andras>
>
>
>         Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:55 pm (PST)
>
> Almost correct, except that the wave is tranversal, not longitudinal.
> There are two waves, not one:
> 1: pick->fret->
> PU
> 2: pick->PU->bridge->PU
> >From the three PU signals many information can be extracted.
>
> Btw. this is the of course the AXON method, not the Roland GR-33.
>
(Continue reading)

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Gmane