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The Puppeteer | 1 Sep 2005 02:57
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pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

I use a device by Behringer called the Edison if I need to combine a stereo
sound or mix to mono.  It tracks and modify's the phase for an upper and
lower spectrum.  Dialling both down to 0 degrees phase separation makes a
very good mono mix.  It's a pretty cheap device ($300 AUD) though I'm not
sure if it's still available.

I keep one wired up in my live rack, and if I play on a mono PA, I simply
spin 2 dials and I'm fully mono compatible, without needing to program out
my stereo sounds.

I'm not sure if the PC2x can do this, but on the K2600 you could try panning
the output of each layer to the centre.  This is pretty easy on the K2600 -
just go to the output page.

Otherwise there are some things that can be done with KDFX to bring the mix
to mono, either through sends, or using the Stereo Analyse or the Stereo
Image KDFX Algorithms.  The latter does essentially the same thing as the
Behringer Edison.

I'm not sure if these are available on the PC2x, but they are there for
those of you who have this problem on a K2600.

The Puppeteer
http://sonikmatter.com

Joe

The phase errors would still occur with the scheme you have described, and
Jon is correct - it would sound wrong.
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Laurence Payne | 1 Sep 2005 10:04
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Re: pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

>I use a device by Behringer called the Edison if I need to combine a stereo
> sound or mix to mono.  It tracks and modify's the phase for an upper and
> lower spectrum.  Dialling both down to 0 degrees phase separation makes a
> very good mono mix.  It's a pretty cheap device ($300 AUD) though I'm not
> sure if it's still available.
>
> I keep one wired up in my live rack, and if I play on a mono PA, I simply
> spin 2 dials and I'm fully mono compatible, without needing to program out
> my stereo sounds.

Set to zero, what exactly does this do other than simply combine the two 
channels, retaining any mono incompatibility?

>
> I'm not sure if the PC2x can do this, but on the K2600 you could try 
> panning
> the output of each layer to the centre.  This is pretty easy on the 
> K2600 -
> just go to the output page.

See above.

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KurzList | 1 Sep 2005 18:31
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The Puppeteer | 2 Sep 2005 02:29
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pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

For the Edison, when both dials are set to zero it pushes the phase
correlation to 0 degrees (ie - both signals are 100% in phase).  It's a
little more complicated than simply summing the signals.  They are combined,
but they are combined in phase, so it avoids much of the phase cancellation
that can be present if you simply sum two signals.

If you use the output method, then you may still have some phase
cancellation, but in my experience, the point in the signal chain that you
sum things can have a significant effect on phase cancellation problems, so
it's worth trying the summing at different points, particularly if you have
signal processing happening.  Summing before a reverb can have a very
different effect to summing after a reverb, for example.

I know for me, the Edison works well.

The Puppeteer
http://sonikmatter.com

> 
> Set to zero, what exactly does this do other than simply combine the two
> channels, retaining any mono incompatibility?
> 
> 
> >
> > I'm not sure if the PC2x can do this, but on the K2600 you could try
> > panning
> > the output of each layer to the centre.  This is pretty easy on the
> > K2600 -
> > just go to the output page.
>
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Jon Stubbs | 2 Sep 2005 03:54
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Re: pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

>For the Edison, when both dials are set to zero it pushes the phase
>correlation to 0 degrees (ie - both signals are 100% in phase).

At all frequencies?

If you have complex signals containing a broad spectrum of
frequencies, some in phase and some out of phase,
then shifting the phase of one channel while it might correct
things at one frequency would likely disturb the phase
at others.

If Edison were completely phase aligning all frequencies
at once, it would need to split the signal into a large
number of frequency bands and align them all independently.
This would require an extraordinary amount of processing power.

>If you use the output method, then you may still have some phase
>cancellation, but in my experience, the point in the signal chain that you
>sum things can have a significant effect on phase cancellation problems, so
>it's worth trying the summing at different points,

My thought would be that the summing point may have an
effect on the sound, but could not have a significant
effect on phase cancellation. You are taking two signals
and combining them. If waves are out of phase, they ought
to cancel no matter where you add them. But in some situations,
the phase cancellation may be affected by hotter gain on one
channel, and other minutia.

I'd be curious to hear the results of the various summing
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Bruce Zweig | 2 Sep 2005 20:02
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Re: pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

I decided to do some testing.  I played a midi recording ('Pictures at
an Exhibition') through the pc2r and played around with my mixer.  I
tested 'stereo grand' (voice 0), 'mono grand' (#4), and 'mono stage'
(#11).  I recorded 'stereo grand' 6 different ways - in stereo, in
mono, right only, left only, right + 1/2 left and left + 1/2 right.

I discovered that:

(1) "stereo grand" sounds pretty bad in mono; 
(2) "mono grand" sucks - it's as bad as stereo grand in mono
(3) "mono stage piano" is not too bad; still, it sounds better in
stereo than it does in mono.

As near as I can tell, the most obnoxious thing with mono is that
sustained low and middle tones sound wrong when the two channels are
mixed in mono - the sustain sounds too 'phasey' or 'buzzy' in mono
during the decay phase.

I tried a mono mix of the two channels of the stereo grand, but I
turned down the left channel about 1/2 way, to try and reduce some of
the cross-channel phase problems but still keep the acoustic
information.  This seemed to help.

If anyone's interested, I could post some examples in .wav or .mp3
format.  I recorded the stero grand (program 0) in stereo, mono, left
only, right only, left + 1/2 right (mono), and right+1/2 left (mono).
I also recorded 11 (mono stage) in stereo and mono.  Each take is
about 1 minute of the 'promenade' from 'pictures at an exhibition.'  

Bruce
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zonk222 | 2 Sep 2005 21:15
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Re: Re: pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

I use a PC2R that's connected to a Motion Sound KP200S stereo amplifier.
However, when I select any of the piano sounds, including those listed in your recent messsage, the pianos
sound dull and lifeless.

What can I do to edit them and make them sound more alive?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Zweig <userzweig <at> hotmail.com>
To: KurzList <at> yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:02:43 -0000
Subject: [KL] Re: pc2x piano in mono mode has problems

I decided to do some testing.  I played a midi recording ('Pictures at
an Exhibition') through the pc2r and played around with my mixer.  I
tested 'stereo grand' (voice 0), 'mono grand' (#4), and 'mono stage'
(#11).  I recorded 'stereo grand' 6 different ways - in stereo, in
mono, right only, left only, right + 1/2 left and left + 1/2 right.

I discovered that:

(1) "stereo grand" sounds pretty bad in mono; 
(2) "mono grand" sucks - it's as bad as stereo grand in mono
(3) "mono stage piano" is not too bad; still, it sounds better in
stereo than it does in mono.

As near as I can tell, the most obnoxious thing with mono is that
sustained low and middle tones sound wrong when the two channels are
mixed in mono - the sustain sounds too 'phasey' or 'buzzy' in mono
(Continue reading)

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Mike Warpenburg | 3 Sep 2005 07:22
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DMTi cable

Finally got around to buying a used DMTi but I need a cable for it? Will a good quality video (i.e. VGA cable)
work or do I need to find a Kurzweil cable for it?

Thanks. 

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Jon Stubbs | 3 Sep 2005 16:38
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Re: DMTi cable

The manual says it's a "proprietary" "custom" cable,
which sounds like you can't just use a VGA cable.

It ordinarily comes with a cable. Did you check with the
seller to see if they have it lying around?

Otherwise you'll probably have to go to Kurzweil.

>Finally got around to buying a used DMTi but I need a cable for it? Will a
>good quality video (i.e. VGA cable) work or do I need to find a Kurzweil
>cable for it?

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drdave | 3 Sep 2005 19:12

Playing EPS sounds

Hey Folks

I am able to load my EPS sounds into my K2000R but how do you access 
them for playback? And is it the same process for the other native formats?

The manual did not reveal this to me.

Thanks
Dave

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Gmane