Johne Cook | 1 Jul 16:55 2009
Picon

My new short story published online today!

"Blessed Are the Peacemakers," an homage to Keith Laumer's 'Retief' character, is the featured story in Issue 02 of Digital Dragon magazine:
http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/


A former space marine is caught between his principles and his duty as he juggles working for an old enemy while trying to forge a crucial treaty with a ferocious alien race.

http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/cook-peacemakers.php

johne cook - wisconsin, usa
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://phywriter.com
--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Lucas John | 1 Jul 17:42 2009
Picon

Re: My new short story published online today!

Congrats Johne!  And to think I knew you when.

Peace in the Valley, Johnny c)>:o

http://www.humboldtmusic.com/johnklucas

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Johne Cook <johne.cook-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Johne Cook <johne.cook-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [DADL-OT] My new short story published online today!
To: "DADL (off topic)" <dadl-ot-MhnCnTyFDG6cqzYg7KEe8g@public.gmane.org>, "Arts, Culture, Theology" <x-act <at> xreal.org>, thecooks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Cc: "David Wilhelms" <davidw <at> frontiernet.net>, "Lauren Jones" <giddy99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Bob Hunt" <robinhunt-KealBaEQdz4@public.gmane.org>, "Trina Rich" <tlrich61-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Paul Wolf" <pawwof-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, jerry_koepke-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, "Marifrances Cataldi" <marifrances_cataldi-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Gene Scullion" <gene.scullion <at> etcconnect.com>, "Matthew McConley" <mamcconley-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Christine Verdico" <verdicoc-YYhoBthLFQ5BDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>, "Dan and Yumi Wolf" <danandyumi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 7:55 AM

"Blessed Are the Peacemakers," an homage to Keith Laumer's 'Retief' character, is the featured story in Issue 02 of Digital Dragon magazine:
http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/


A former space marine is caught between his principles and his duty as he juggles working for an old enemy while trying to forge a crucial treaty with a ferocious alien race.

http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/cook-peacemakers.php

johne cook - wisconsin, usa
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://phywriter.com

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Lucas John | 1 Jul 17:43 2009
Picon

Re: My new short story published online today!

Congrats Johne!

Peace in the Valley, Johnny c)>:o

http://www.humboldtmusic.com/johnklucas

--- On Wed, 7/1/09, Johne Cook <johne.cook-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

From: Johne Cook <johne.cook-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [DADL-OT] My new short story published online today!
To: "DADL (off topic)" <dadl-ot-MhnCnTyFDG6cqzYg7KEe8g@public.gmane.org>, "Arts, Culture, Theology" <x-act-Bcb51yNOdY/YtjvyW6yDsg@public.gmane.org>, thecooks-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Cc: "David Wilhelms" <davidw-/1bC63wxbnDD0D/r9Z6QQA@public.gmane.org>, "Lauren Jones" <giddy99-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Bob Hunt" <robinhunt-KealBaEQdz4@public.gmane.org>, "Trina Rich" <tlrich61-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Paul Wolf" <pawwof-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, jerry_koepke-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, "Marifrances Cataldi" <marifrances_cataldi-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Gene Scullion" <gene.scullion-tqtB68VNcUsSWr57yraSmw@public.gmane.org>, "Matthew McConley" <mamcconley-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>, "Christine Verdico" <verdicoc-YYhoBthLFQ5BDgjK7y7TUQ@public.gmane.org>, "Dan an d Yumi Wolf" <danandyumi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 7:55 AM

"Blessed Are the Peacemakers," an homage to Keith Laumer's 'Retief' character, is the featured story in Issue 02 of Digital Dragon magazine:
http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/


A former space marine is caught between his principles and his duty as he juggles working for an old enemy while trying to forge a crucial treaty with a ferocious alien race.

http://www.digitaldragonmagazine.net/cook-peacemakers.php

johne cook - wisconsin, usa
| http://raygunrevival .com | http://phywriter.com

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Johne Cook | 1 Jul 20:56 2009
Picon

Did Heath Ledger try to sabotage his role in The Dark Knight?

And even if so, do we care?

http://themovieblog.com/2009/06/did-heath-ledger-purposefully-try-to-sabotage-the-dark-knight

By John - June 30, 2009 - 23:01 America/Montreal

I came across this little story that is so hard to believe and shocking, I just had to share it here. There are accusations going around that Heath Ledger wasn’t really brilliant playing The Joker in The Dark Knight… but rather he was trying to be so over the top and ridiculous that he’d get fired.

Basically, Ledger had a contract that would pay him the huge salary he got for The Dark Knight even if he got fired. Listen to this:

According to Ledger’s agent Steven Alexander and cinematographer/friend Nicola Pecorini, the actor had a pay-or-play deal on “Knight,” which means that he would be compensated no matter how terrible he ends up being. This gave Ledger the freedom to do what he wanted with The Joker.

But the real decision to take the role was because of the film’s unusually long shoot, which would give Ledger an excuse to turn down other offers. And since he was guaranteed to collect a paycheck, Ledger was hoping that his performance would be so “far-out” that he would end up being fired and become the beneficiary of a lengthy, paid vacation.

His agent added that while Ledger wanted to get paid, he didn’t want to be part of the massive blockbuster that “The Dark Knight” turned out to be. “[Ledger] was always hesitant to be in a summer blockbuster, with the dolls and action figures and everything else that comes with one of those movies,” Alexander explained. “He was afraid it would define him and limit his choices.”

WHAT!?!?! Seriously?!?!?!

I honestly don’t know what to think about this. Worst Previews is citing Vanity Fair as the source, which is no rag.


I'll say this; I don't care. If Ledger felt the freedom to act over-the-top in order to try to be fired for being too much, but he completed his shooting schedule in the same outrageous vein, and that motivation is what freed him to be simply the best villain (right next to Anton Chirgurh) in decades, does it matter?

Not to me. What matters is the footage that survived, the role he actually turned in. Artists of all sorts have suspect motivations and decision-processing. As long as the world is stellar, I really care very little about what was going on in his head. The fact of the matter is that he did the work, and that pushed Hans Zimmer to do the work /he/ did, and the whole enterprise is, like, the 2nd most profitable film at this point in time.


johne cook - wisconsin, usa
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://phywriter.com
--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Peter T. Chattaway | 1 Jul 21:09 2009
Picon
Picon

Re: Did Heath Ledger try to sabotage his role in The Dark Knight?

On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Johne Cook wrote:
> I'll say this; I don't care. If Ledger felt the freedom to act 
> over-the-top in order to try to be fired for being too much, but he 
> completed his shooting schedule in the same outrageous vein, and that 
> motivation is what freed him to be simply the best villain (right next 
> to Anton Chirgurh) in decades, does it matter?

More to the point:  If Ledger's performance hadn't been working for Chris 
Nolan, would Nolan have kept him on the film?

> Not to me. What matters is the footage that survived, the role he 
> actually turned in.

With the help of Nolan and his editors, natch.  ;)

> The fact of the matter is that he did the work, and that pushed Hans 
> Zimmer to do the work /he/ did, and the whole enterprise is, like, the 
> 2nd most profitable film at this point in time.

Um, no, not quite.  The film is the #2 earner of all time in North America 
and the #4 earner of all time worldwide -- before adjusting for inflation. 
And the question of "profit" complicates matters even more, because first 
you have to account for how much was spent on making and promoting the 
movie (and how much was kept by theatres and points players etc.).

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot

Johne Cook | 2 Jul 14:46 2009
Picon

Dev stays without pay to finish Mac Graphing Calculator as skunkworks project

This is a cool story. I've read it before, but it's a rousing tale of dedication to a task regardless of actual payment or a contract.

http://www.pacifict.com/Story/

The Graphing Calculator Story

Copyright © 2004 Ron Avitzur.

Pacific Tech's Graphing Calculator has a long history. I began the work in 1985 while in school. That became Milo, and later became part of FrameMaker. Over the last twenty years, many people have contributed to it. Graphing Calculator 1.0, which Apple bundled with the original PowerPC computers, originated under unique circumstances.

I used to be a contractor for Apple, working on a secret project. Unfortunately, the computer we were building never saw the light of day. The project was so plagued by politics and ego that when the engineers requested technical oversight, our manager hired a psychologist instead. In August 1993, the project was canceled. A year of my work evaporated, my contract ended, and I was unemployed.

I was frustrated by all the wasted effort, so I decided to uncancel my small part of the project. I had been paid to do a job, and I wanted to finish it. My electronic badge still opened Apple's doors, so I just kept showing up.

 

I had many sympathizers. Apple's engineers thought what I was doing was cool. Whenever I gave demos, my colleagues said, "I wish I'd had that when I was in school." Those working on Apple's project to change the microprocessor in its computers to the IBM PowerPC were especially supportive. They thought my software would show off the speed of their new machine. None of them was able to hire me, however, so I worked unofficially, in classic "skunkworks" fashion.

I knew nothing about the PowerPC and had no idea how to modify my software to run on it. One August night, after dinner, two guys showed up to announce that they would camp out in my office until the modification was done. The three of us spent the next six hours editing fifty thousand lines of code. The work was delicate surgery requiring arcane knowledge of the MacOS, the PowerPC, and my own software. It would have taken weeks for any one of us working alone.

At 1:00 a.m., we trekked to an office that had a PowerPC prototype. We looked at each other, took a deep breath, and launched the application. The monitor burst into flames. We calmly carried it outside to avoid setting off smoke detectors, plugged in another monitor, and tried again. The software hadn't caused the fire; the monitor had just chosen that moment to malfunction. The software ran over fifty times faster than it had run on the old microprocessor. We played with it for a while and agreed, "This doesn't suck" (high praise in Apple lingo). We had an impressive demo, but it would take months of hard work to turn it into a product.

  

I asked my friend Greg Robbins to help me. His contract in another division at Apple had just ended, so he told his manager that he would start reporting to me. She didn't ask who I was and let him keep his office and badge. In turn, I told people that I was reporting to him. Since that left no managers in the loop, we had no meetings and could be extremely productive. We worked twelve hours a day, seven days a week. Greg had unlimited energy and a perfectionist's attention to detail. He usually stayed behind closed doors programming all day, while I spent much of my time talking with other engineers. Since I had asked him to help as a personal favor, I had to keep pace with him. Thanks to an uncurtained east-facing window in my bedroom, I woke with the dawn and usually arrived ten minutes before Greg did. He would think I had been working for hours and feel obliged to work late to stay on par. I in turn felt obliged to stay as late as he did. This feedback loop created an ever-increasing spiral of productivity.

People around the Apple campus saw us all the time and assumed we belonged. Few asked who we were or what we were doing.When someone did ask me, I never lied, but relied on the power of corporate apathy. The conversations usually went like this:

Q: Do you work here?
A: No.
Q: You mean you're a contractor?
A: Actually, no.
Q: But then who's paying you?
A: No one.
Q: How do you live?
A: I live simply.
Q: (Incredulously) What are you doing here?!

At that point I'd give a demo and explain that the project had been canceled but that I was staying to finish it anyway. Since I had neither a mortgage nor a family, I could afford to live off savings. Most engineers at Apple had been through many canceled projects and completely understood my motivation.

Apple at that time had a strong tradition of skunkworks projects, in which engineers continued to work on canceled projects in hopes of producing demos that would inspire management to revive them. On occasion, they succeeded. One project, appropriately code-named Spectre, was canceled and restarted no fewer than five times. Engineers worked after hours on their skunkworks, in addition to working full time on their assigned projects. Greg and I, as nonemployees who had no daytime responsibilities, were merely extending this tradition to the next level.

  

In September, Apple Facilities tried to move people into our officially empty offices. They noticed us. The Facilities woman assumed that I had merely changed projects and had not yet moved to my new group, something that happened all the time. She asked what group I worked in, since it would be that group's responsibility to find me space. When I told her the truth, she was not amused. She called Security, had them cancel our badges, and told us in no uncertain terms to leave the premises.

We were saved by the layoffs that began that month. Twenty percent of Apple's fifteen thousand workers lost their jobs, but Greg and I were safe because we weren't on the books in the first place and didn't officially exist. Afterwards, there were plenty of empty offices. We found two and started sneaking into the building every day, waiting out in front for real employees to arrive and casually tailgating them through the door. Lots of people knew us and no one asked questions, since we wore our old badges as decoys.

We were making great progress, but we couldn't get it done alone. Creating sophisticated software requires a team effort. One person can use smoke and mirrors to make a demo that dazzles an audience. But shipping that to a million customers will expose its flaws and leave everyone looking bad. It is a cliche in our business that the first 90 percent of the work is easy, the second 90 percent wears you down, and the last 90 percent - the attention to detail - makes a good product. Making software that is simultaneously easy to learn, easy to use, friendly, useful, and powerful takes people with an incredible combination of skills, talent, and artistry working together with intensity and patience. Greg and I could do the core engineering, but that was a far cry from creating a finished product.

Among other things, we needed professional quality assurance (QA), the difficult and time-consuming testing that would show us the design flaws and implementation bugs we couldn't see in our own work. Out of nowhere, two QA guys we had never met approached us, having heard about our venture through the rumor mill. (We had become a kind of underground cause célèbre.) Their day job, QA-ing system software, was mind-numbingly boring. They volunteered to help us, saying, "Let's not tell our boss about this, OK?" One guy had a Ph.D. in mathematics; the other had previously written mathematical software himself. They were a godsend. They started right away.

Next, we needed help writing software to draw the three-dimensional images that our software produced. A friend with expertise in this area took a weekend off from his startup company to write all of this software. He did in two days what would have taken me a month.

My skunkworks project was beginning to look real with help from these professionals as well as others in graphic design, documentation, programming, mathematics, and user interface. The secret to programming is not intelligence, though of course that helps. It is not hard work or experience, though they help, too. The secret to programming is having smart friends.

  

There was one last pressing question: How could we get this thing included with the system software when the new machines shipped? The thought that we might fail to do this terrified me far more than the possibility of criminal prosecution for trespass. All the sweat that Greg and I had put in, all the clandestine aid from the friends, acquaintances, and strangers on whom I had shamelessly imposed, all the donations of time, expertise, hardware, soft drinks, and junk food would be wasted.

Once again, my sanity was saved by the kindness of a stranger. At 2:00 one morning, a visitor appeared in my office: the engineer responsible for making the PowerPC system disk master. He explained things this way: "Apple is a hardware company. There are factories far away building Apple computers. One of the final steps of their assembly line is to copy all of the system software from the 'Golden Master' hard disk onto each computer's hard disk. I create the Golden Master and FedEx it to the manufacturing plant. In a very real and pragmatic sense, I decide what software does and does not ship." He told me that if I gave him our software the day before the production run began, it could appear on the Golden Master disk. Then, before anyone realized it was there, thirty thousand units with our software on the disks would be boxed in a warehouse. (In retrospect, he may have been joking. But we didn't know that, so it allowed us to move forward with confidence.)

Once we had a plausible way to ship, Apple became the ideal work environment. Every engineer we knew was willing to help us. We got resources that would never have been available to us had we been on the payroll. For example, at that time only about two hundred PowerPC chips existed in the world. Most of those at Apple were being used by the hardware design engineers. Only a few dozen coveted PowerPC machines were even available in System Software for people working on the operating system. We had two. Engineers would come to our offices at midnight and practically slip machines under the door. One said, "Officially, this machine doesn't exist, you didn't get it from me, and I don't know you. Make sure it doesn't leave the building."

In October, when we thought we were almost finished, engineers who had been helping us had me demonstrate our software to their managers. A dozen people packed into my office. I didn't expect their support, but I felt obliged to make a good-faith effort to go through their official channels. I gave a twenty-minute demonstration, eliciting "oohs" and "ahhs." Afterward, they asked, "Who do you report to? What group are you in? Why haven't we seen this earlier?" I explained that I had been sneaking into the building and that the project didn't exist. They laughed, until they realized I was serious. Then they told me, "Don't repeat this story."

  

The director of PowerPC software was an academic on leave from Dartmouth. The director of PowerPC marketing was the son of a math teacher. Seeing the value of putting this educational software on every Macintosh in every school, they promptly adopted us.

Then things got really weird. The QA manager assigned people to test our product. (I didn't tell him that those people were already working on it.) The localization group assigned people to translate it into twenty languages. The human interface group ran a formal usability study. I was at the center of a whirlwind of activity. Nevertheless, Greg and I still had to sneak into the building. The people in charge of the PowerPC project, upon which the company's future depended, couldn't get us badges without a purchase order. They couldn't get a purchase order without a signed contract. They couldn't get a contract without approval from Legal, and if Legal heard the truth, we'd be escorted out of the building.

Greg was lurking outside one day, trying to act casual, when another engineer accosted him and said, "I'm sick and tired of you guys loitering in front of the building every day!" Later he phoned the appropriate bureaucrats on our behalf. I listened to his side of the conversation for twenty minutes: "No, there is no PO, because we're not paying them. No, there is no contract, because they are not contractors. No, they are not employees; we have no intention of hiring them. Yes, they must have building access because they are shipping code on our box. No, we don't have a PO number. There is no PO, because we're not paying them." Finally, he wore them down. They said to use the standard form to apply for badges, but to cross out Contractor and write in Vendor. Where it asked for a PO number, we were to use the magic words "No dollar contract." We got badges the next day. They were orange Vendor badges, the same kind the people working in the cafeteria, watering the plants, and fixing the photocopy machines had.

Official recognition made life exciting. Suddenly even more people became enthusiastically involved. When formal usability testing with students and teachers began, we discovered, again, that we were far from being done.

I had long been proud of the elegance and simplicity of our design. I wanted our program to ship with every Macintosh, so I had designed it for all users, even those who know little about computers and hate math. I wanted to make mathematics as easy and enjoyable as playing a game. In a classroom, any time spent frustrated with the computer is time taken away from teaching. Sitting behind a two-way mirror, watching first-time users struggle with our software, reminded me that programmers are the least qualified people to design software for novices. Humbled after five days of this, Greg and I went back and painstakingly added feedback to the software, as if we were standing next to users, explaining it ourselves.

Our recognition made life interesting in other ways since we could no longer remain a well kept secret. After a demo to outside developers, one person called Apple claiming that we infringed his patent, causing a fire drill until I could show prior art. Another company, the makers of Mathematica™, simply demanded that our product be pulled. Apple very politely declined. One week we were evading security, the next week Apple is rising to our defense.

By November, we were in full crunch mode, working sixteen hours a day, seven days a week, and feeling the pressure. The home stretch was a blur - wake up, grab a bagel, eat it while driving, work till we drop, sleep, repeat. If this story were a movie, you would now see the clock hand spinning and the calendar pages blowing away in the wind.

We finished in January 1994. Graphing Calculator has been part of the Macintosh ever since. Teachers around the world use it as an animated blackboard to illustrate abstract concepts visually. It shipped on more than twenty million machines. It never officially existed.

  

Why did Greg and I do something so ludicrous as sneaking into an eight-billion-dollar corporation to do volunteer work? Apple was having financial troubles then, so we joked that we were volunteering for a nonprofit organization. In reality, our motivation was complex. Partly, the PowerPC was an awesome machine, and we wanted to show off what could be done with it; in the Spinal Tap idiom, we said, "OK, this one goes to eleven." Partly, we were thinking of the storytelling value. Partly, it was a macho computer guy thing - we had never shipped a million copies of software before. Mostly, Greg and I felt that creating quality educational software was a public service. We were doing it to help kids learn math. Public schools are too poor to buy software, so the most effective way to deliver it is to install it at the factory.

Beyond this lies another set of questions, both psychological and political. Was I doing this out of bitterness that my project had been canceled? Was I subversively coopting the resources of a multinational corporation for my own ends? Or was I naive, manipulated by the system into working incredibly hard for its benefit? Was I a loose cannon, driven by arrogance and ego, or was I just devoted to furthering the cause of education?

I view the events as an experiment in subverting power structures. I had none of the traditional power over others that is inherent to the structure of corporations and bureaucracies. I had neither budget nor headcount. I answered to no one, and no one had to do anything I asked. Dozens of people collaborated spontaneously, motivated by loyalty, friendship, or the love of craftsmanship. We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work.

  

After six months of grueling unpaid labor, Greg couldn't explain to his parents what he had done. They didn't use computers, and the only periodical they read was the New York Times. So as the project was winding down, I asked Greg if he wanted his photo in the Times so his parents would know what he was up to. He gave the only possible response: "Yeah, right." We made a bet for dinner at Le Mouton Noir, a fine French restaurant in Saratoga. To be honest, I expected to lose, but I made a phone call. Greg doesn't bet against me any more: On March 11, 1994, the front page of the Times business section contained an article on the alliance among Apple, IBM, and Motorola, picturing Greg and me in my front yard with a view of the Santa Cruz Mountains. Someone I knew in Apple Public Relations was livid. I had asked if she wanted to send someone for the interview, but she had said that engineers are not allowed to talk with the press. It's hard to enforce that kind of thing with people who can't be fired. It was positive press for Apple, though, and our parents were pleased.

We wanted to release a Windows version as part of Windows 98, but sadly, Microsoft has effective building security.

Postscript: After the events described, we made everything retroactively legitimate by licensing the software to Apple for distribution. Pacific Tech started a few years later, and continued to develop Graphing Calculator, both in new free versions that Apple bundled with Mac OS 8 and Mac OS 9, and commercial releases. Visit http://www.PacificT.com/FreeStuff.html to download the software.

Download Graphing Calculator Viewer for Mac OS X, Mac OS 9, or Windows

Software design lessons of the Graphing Calculator

The discussion on Slashdot, AppleTurns, Newsweek and This American Life

Google Story Hour Video (Ron's Tech Talk at Google)

A Programmer's Apology (Ron's Graphing Calculator blog)




johne cook - wisconsin, usa
| http://raygunrevival.com | http://phywriter.com
--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Peter T. Chattaway | 2 Jul 16:29 2009
Picon
Picon

Re: Larry Norman's illegitimate son's legal update

Kevin blocked this from the regular DADL -- I was responding to posts as I 
read them, so I responded to Karl's post below before I came across 
Kevin's later post about taking the DADL to moderated status -- but since 
I was replying to Karl, I figured I'd re-post my response here.

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Karl wrote:
> I see I got drug into this again.

ITYM "dragged".  Unless you mean "drug" because of the whole "medicated" 
thing.  ;)

> You say many things that are hearsay at best.  None of this matter until 
> the paternity test and the fact remains that your involvement has likely 
> slowed that down considerably.

FWIW, I disagree.  I think it matters very much if Larry openly allowed 
for the possibility that Daniel was his son, possibly even treated him as 
such at times, but refused to confirm his paternity (via a DNA test or 
whatever) even as he marginalized Daniel in his will, etc.

All of these things combined reveal aspects of Larry's character quite 
independently of whatever Daniel's DNA might say about Larry.

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot

Lance McLain | 2 Jul 16:30 2009

Goldman Sachs: "Engineering Every Major Market Manipulation Since The Great Depression"

 From this months Rolling Stone.  Finally some mainstream hatred being  
directed at these thieves.

Regards,
-Lance

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/goldman-sachs-engineering-every-major.html

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 24, 2009
Goldman Sachs: "Engineering Every Major Market Manipulation Since The  
Great Depression"
Posted by Tyler Durden at 2:58 PM
With a subtitle like "From tech stocks to high gas prices, Goldman  
Sachs has engineered every major market manipulation since the Great  
Depression - and they're about to do it again" run, don't walk, to  
your nearest kiosk and buy Matt Taibbi's latest piece in Rolling Stone  
magazine. One of the best comprehensive profiles of Government Sachs  
done to date. Speaking of GS, they sure must be busy today, now that  
Bernanke is about to be impeached and take the fall for all their  
machinations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16763183/TaibbiGoldmanSachs

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot

Mike Findlay | 2 Jul 16:42 2009
Picon
Picon

Re: Larry Norman's illegitimate son's legal update


I don't know anything about this; I'd never even heard that LN might have had an illegitimate son, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

However, the refusal to take a DNA test to confirm/deny paternity, imo, tends to indicate an acknowledgment of the likelihood that the one refusing to take the test is the parent/child.  IOW, if you claim someone isn't your child the quickest and easiest way to clear it up is to demand a paternity/dna test.  I mean if you know you didn't sleep with the mother of the child and/or any other anonymous w oman why would you allow that untruth to be perpetuated or tolerated?  Even if only for the sake of your legitimate children and their mother you would want the rumor put to rest.

Mike F.  



From: Peter T. Chattaway <petert-LOVM4QxV+tDq6eQxt3vRmLDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
To: Daniel Amos off-topic listserver <dadl-ot-MhnCnTyFDG6cqzYg7KEe8g@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 9:29:21 AM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Larry Norman's illegitimate son's legal update

Kevin blocked this from the regular DADL -- I was responding to posts as I read them, so I responded to Karl's post below before I came across Kevin's later post about taking the DADL to moderated status -- but since I was replying to Karl, I figured I'd re-post my response here.


On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Karl wrote:
> I see I got drug into this again.

ITYM "dragged".  Unless you mean "drug" because of the whole "medicated" thing.  ;)

> You say many things that are hearsay at best.  None of this matter until the paternity test and the fact remains that your involvement has likely slowed that down considerably.

FWIW, I disagree.  I think it matters very much if Larry openly allowed for the possibility that Daniel was his son, possibly even treated him as such at times, but refused to confirm his paternity (via a DNA test or whatever) even as he marginalized Daniel in his will, etc.

All of these things combined reveal aspects of Larry's character quite independently of whatever Daniel's DNA might say about Larry.

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
Lance McLain | 2 Jul 16:45 2009

Re: Larry Norman's illegitimate son's legal update

How long ago was this?  Were DNA tests even a reasonable option when this happened?

regards,
-Lance

On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Mike Findlay wrote:


I don't know anything about this; I'd never even heard that LN might have had an illegitimate son, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

However, the refusal to take a DNA test to confirm/deny paternity, imo, tends to indicate an acknowledgment of the likelihood that the one refusing to take the test is the parent/child.  IOW, if you claim someone isn't your child the quickest and easiest way to clear it up is to demand a paternity/dna test.  I mean if you know you didn't sleep with the mother of the child and/or any other anonymous woman why would you allow that untruth to be perpetuated or tolerated?  Even if only for the sake of your legitimate children and their mother you would want the rumor put to rest.

Mike F.   



From: Peter T. Chattaway <petert-LOVM4QxV+tDq6eQxt3vRmLDks+cytr/Z@public.gmane.org>
To: Daniel Amos off-topic listserver <dadl-ot-MhnCnTyFDG6cqzYg7KEe8g@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 9:29:21 AM
Subject: Re: [DADL-OT] Larry Norman's illegitimate son's legal update

Kevin blocked this from the regular DADL -- I was responding to posts as I read them, so I responded to Karl's post below before I came across Kevin's later post about taking the DADL to moderated status -- but since I was replying to Karl, I figured I'd re-post my response here.


On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Karl wrote:
> I see I got drug into this again.

ITYM "dragged".  Unless you mean "drug" because of the whole "medicated" thing.  ;)

> You say many things that are hearsay at best.  None of this matter until the paternity test and the fact remains that your involvement has likely slowed that down considerably.

FWIW, I disagree.  I think it matters very much if Larry openly allowed for the possibility that Daniel was his son, possibly even treated him as such at times, but refused to confirm his paternity (via a DNA test or whatever) even as he marginalized Daniel in his will, etc.

All of these things combined reveal aspects of Larry's character quite independently of whatever Daniel's DNA might say about Larry.

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot
--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot

Regards,
-Lance

--
dadl-ot mailing list
http://thehood.us/mailman/listinfo/dadl-ot_thehood.us
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot

Gmane