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wwp | 1 Dec 2009 08:00
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[sylpheed:33377] Re: New install of Claws creates strange folder

Hello John,

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:45:29 -0800 John Jason Jordan <johnxj <at> comcast.net> wrote:

> Being unable to get Sylpheed to launch on my new installation of OpenSuse 11.1,
> I installed Claws Mail 3.7.3 instead. Everything is OK, except for something
> very odd. There is now a folder in my Desktop folder called Gnome. Inside are
> 127 .png files that look like Claws Mail buttons and icons. There is also a text
> file named claws-themeinfo.
> 
> Why on earth in my Desktop folder?
> 
> After some head scratching I shut down Claws Mail, renamed the folder, then
> restarted Claws Mail. Everything looks the same.
> 
> I guess it's not important, but I'm curious.

That's not all, you also posted a Claws Mail question to the Sylpheed
users mailing list. Quite irrelevant, IMO ;-).

Regards,

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wwp
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Cristian Secară | 3 Dec 2009 11:06
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[sylpheed:33378] reversed button order ?

On this dialog (see attachment) I always considered that the "Cancel"
and "Close without saving" buttons are in reverse position.

I mean, here in Sylpheed is
Save -- Cancel -- Close without saving
whereas in other applications with similar dialog wording (OpenOffice,
GIMP) this is
Save -- Close without saving -- Cancel

Also in most applications I am using (on Windows :) this type of dialog
is always Yes -- No -- Cancel

When on Sylpheed, every time I come to this dialog, I have to stop and
think "wait, this is Sylpheed, here is otherwise, what should I do here
exactly ?"

Am I the only one ?
Or perhaps the actual order reflect some habits on Japan software ? :)

Cristi

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Cristian Secară
http://www.secarica.ro/
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mike | 3 Dec 2009 15:12
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[sylpheed:33379] Re: reversed button order ?

It looks like this in linux (see attachment) - the other way round - and I am
completely fine with that - because - since I can read I almost always know
where to click ;o)

best
mike

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:06:13 +0200
Cristian Secară <orice <at> secarica.ro> wrote:

> On this dialog (see attachment) I always considered that the "Cancel"
> and "Close without saving" buttons are in reverse position.
> 
> I mean, here in Sylpheed is
> Save -- Cancel -- Close without saving
> whereas in other applications with similar dialog wording (OpenOffice,
> GIMP) this is
> Save -- Close without saving -- Cancel
> 
> Also in most applications I am using (on Windows :) this type of dialog
> is always Yes -- No -- Cancel
> 
> When on Sylpheed, every time I come to this dialog, I have to stop and
> think "wait, this is Sylpheed, here is otherwise, what should I do here
> exactly ?"
> 
> Am I the only one ?
> Or perhaps the actual order reflect some habits on Japan software ? :)
> 
> Cristi
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Gene Goldenfeld | 3 Dec 2009 18:23
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[sylpheed:33380] Re: reversed button order ?

Well, the box's text about save draft never made much sense to me
because it's invoked by clicking on the X button, a willful act to
discard.  Plus, if I want to save the message as a draft, there's a
button up top that I would have clicked.  That said, I do understand
the usefulness of a double check.

I think you are correct that the order in XP is counterintuitive. The
Linux order, or even the Windows standard order, makes more sense.

Gene
Win32

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:06:13 +0200
Cristian Secară <orice <at> secarica.ro> wrote:

> On this dialog (see attachment) I always considered that the "Cancel"
> and "Close without saving" buttons are in reverse position.
> 
> I mean, here in Sylpheed is
> Save -- Cancel -- Close without saving
> whereas in other applications with similar dialog wording (OpenOffice,
> GIMP) this is
> Save -- Close without saving -- Cancel
> 
> Also in most applications I am using (on Windows :) this type of
> dialog is always Yes -- No -- Cancel
> 
> When on Sylpheed, every time I come to this dialog, I have to stop and
> think "wait, this is Sylpheed, here is otherwise, what should I do
> here exactly ?"
(Continue reading)

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Michael Ross | 3 Dec 2009 20:08
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[sylpheed:33381] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:23:50 -0700
Gene Goldenfeld <genegold <at> peoplepc.com> wrote:

> Well, the box's text about save draft never made much sense to me
> because it's invoked by clicking on the X button, a willful act to
> discard.  Plus, if I want to save the message as a draft, there's a
> button up top that I would have clicked.  That said, I do understand
> the usefulness of a double check.
> 
> I think you are correct that the order in XP is counterintuitive. The
> Linux order, or even the Windows standard order, makes more sense.

It doesn't for me. "Discard" is perfectly placed on the right
of this dialog. You close the window: red X in the upper right corner,
and a double-check window pops up, with the option you are most likely
to choose as close as possible to where your mouse is and where your
eyes are.
I'd argue that the left and right buttons are more prominent to the
users perception, so the option you are least likely to choose should
be in the middle. "Cancel" is there. You closed the window, so you will
a) discard your message or save it; undoing the close is what you will
not do in most of the cases.
I actually do read these three-button dialogs left-right-middle, and
ever and ever again it takes me three looks to find wireshark's discard
button, which is in the middle.

Michael
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Celejar | 3 Dec 2009 20:23
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[sylpheed:33382] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 12:06:13 +0200
Cristian Secară <orice <at> secarica.ro> wrote:

> On this dialog (see attachment) I always considered that the "Cancel"
> and "Close without saving" buttons are in reverse position.
> 
> I mean, here in Sylpheed is
> Save -- Cancel -- Close without saving
> whereas in other applications with similar dialog wording (OpenOffice,
> GIMP) this is
> Save -- Close without saving -- Cancel
> 
> Also in most applications I am using (on Windows :) this type of dialog
> is always Yes -- No -- Cancel
> 
> When on Sylpheed, every time I come to this dialog, I have to stop and
> think "wait, this is Sylpheed, here is otherwise, what should I do here
> exactly ?"
> 
> Am I the only one ?
> Or perhaps the actual order reflect some habits on Japan software ? :)

Look at the checkbox for "Make the order of buttons comply with GNOME
HIG" at Configuraton / Common Preferences / Details / Interface.

Celejar
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Cristian Secară | 3 Dec 2009 20:32
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[sylpheed:33383] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:08:22 +0100, Michael Ross wrote:

> It doesn't for me. "Discard" is perfectly placed on the right
> of this dialog. You close the window: red X in the upper right corner,
> and a double-check window pops up, with the option you are most likely
> to choose as close as possible to where your mouse is and where your
> eyes are.

Not quite. This dialog appears often when I close repetedly a lot of
opened windows and come to the Sylpheed compose message window which I
*don't* want to close (happens something like I just click on the X
accidentally), so in that moment I think "no, cancel" and I click
mechanically on the place that usually is the Cancel button, except that
this time I loose the draft.

Putting menus and buttons in approx the same place across applications
on a given operating system is an efficiency issue for the user.

(an vague example -- a Linux user expect the Preferences to be
under Edit, while a Windows user expect the Preferences to be under
Tools; I am not saying which one is better, but is best to keep a
consistency, at least on same OS)

Cristi

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Celejar | 3 Dec 2009 21:02
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[sylpheed:33384] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:32:44 +0200
Cristian Secară <orice <at> secarica.ro> wrote:

...

> (an vague example -- a Linux user expect the Preferences to be
> under Edit, while a Windows user expect the Preferences to be under
> Tools; I am not saying which one is better, but is best to keep a
> consistency, at least on same OS)

It's not actually all that consistent within an OS.  For example, right
now on my Debian Sid desktop I have the following applications open,
with the preferences located in quite a few different places:

Sylph			Configuration
Liferea			Tools
Iceweasel (Firefox)	Edit
OpenOffice Writer	Tools (and they're called 'Options')

Celejar
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Cristian Secară | 3 Dec 2009 22:43
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[sylpheed:33385] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:23:32 -0500, Celejar wrote:

> Look at the checkbox for "Make the order of buttons comply with GNOME
> HIG" at Configuraton / Common Preferences / Details / Interface.

In the Win32 version there is no such thing ...
As for your other message:

> It's not actually all that consistent within an OS.  For example,
> right now on my Debian Sid desktop I have the following applications
> open, with the preferences located in quite a few different places:

unfortunately this is a problematic thing.
It appears that the HIG thing has several incarnations, making it
really difficult for a cross-platform developer to follow all of them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_guidelines
(I am referring to the "Examples of HIG" paragraph/links)

Cristi

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Michael Ross | 3 Dec 2009 23:00
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[sylpheed:33386] Re: reversed button order ?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:32:44 +0200
Cristian Secară <orice <at> secarica.ro> wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:08:22 +0100, Michael Ross wrote:
> 
> > It doesn't for me. "Discard" is perfectly placed on the right
> > of this dialog. You close the window: red X in the upper right corner,
> > and a double-check window pops up, with the option you are most likely
> > to choose as close as possible to where your mouse is and where your
> > eyes are.
> 
> Not quite. This dialog appears often when I close repetedly a lot of
> opened windows and come to the Sylpheed compose message window which I
> *don't* want to close (happens something like I just click on the X
> accidentally), so in that moment I think "no, cancel" and I click
> mechanically on the place that usually is the Cancel button, except that
> this time I loose the draft.

Happens to me vice versa: I close a Word Document, YesNoCancel pops up
and I press Cancel, because that's where the Discard button should be.
Not as bas as loosing a draft, though.

> Putting menus and buttons in approx the same place across applications
> on a given operating system is an efficiency issue for the user.

Sure, so once I get over my nasty habit of expecting buttons in
non-standard places, I'll be over it platform-wide :)

> (an vague example -- a Linux user expect the Preferences to be
> under Edit, while a Windows user expect the Preferences to be under
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