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Rado S | 1 Feb 14:06
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Re: reading color quoted replies

=- Marc Vaillant wrote on Wed 31.Jan'07 at 11:13:25 -0500 -=

> > _You_ have several options:
> > 1) educate your eMail partners to quote mutt-friendly (txt-only).
> > 2) use autoview with a graphical browser => wiki FAQ.
> > 3) use autoview with a script that converts such (*censored*)
> > eMail to some sane usable format by converting the html/css
> > coloring instructions to '> ' sequences.
> > 
> > I recommend 1).
> 
> I guess that I was looking for option 3. Some sort of extension
> for w3m (or another text based browser) that lets you do
> something reasonable when dumping html with FONT COLOR tags to
> text (other than just removing the tags).

I'm not aware of any existing txt-browser that does this.
When you find one, then tell me.
Otherwise you have to script yourself. I'd be interested even in
this (even if only to learn ;).

> Are you serious about option 1?

Why not?

Generally it's good to have visual aids.
However, the implementation varies, and I prefer a simple data
format that works even without a dedicated visual aids interpreter
(human readable): i.e. the way of aiding is not stored in the data
itself but left up to the reader (the original www idea).
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David Champion | 1 Feb 17:25
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Re: reading color quoted replies

* On 2007.02.01, in <20070201130609.GC13107 <at> sun36.math.uni-hamburg.de>,
*	"Rado S" <inmx027 <at> math.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
> 
> > Are you serious about option 1?
> 
> Why not?
> 
> Generally it's good to have visual aids.
> However, the implementation varies, and I prefer a simple data
> format that works even without a dedicated visual aids interpreter
> (human readable): i.e. the way of aiding is not stored in the data
> itself but left up to the reader (the original www idea).
>  A tool can perform its beefing-up well enough on this simple/
> raw data, too, as mutt and other MUAs show.

I agree with you, and I prefer that too, and from his post I think Marc
is in our camp.  But most people don't care that much, as long as they
can tell the difference in their way, and most people don't want to
deviate too far from whatever happens by default.  Trying to persuade
them otherwise often just makes one seem... well, too interested in
telling others how to work, to put it gently.

Although I'd love for everyone to work my way, telling them that they
should usually doesn't work out very well.  This argument must be taken
up with developers, not users.

--

-- 
 -D.    dgc <at> uchicago.edu        NSIT    University of Chicago
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Travis H. | 1 Feb 18:52
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Re: Setting timezone to local timezone

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 10:51:24AM -0500, Kyle Wheeler wrote:
> >>     #!/bin/bash
> >>     # save the message to a file
> >>     cat - > /tmp/timezoneconvert.$$
> >>     # extract the date header
> >>     thedate=$( awk '/^Date: / && !i { $1="" ; print $0 ; i=1}' )
> >>     # convert to the current timezone (defined by TZ)
> >>     thedate=$( date -d "$thedate" )
> >>     # output the modified message
> >>     awk "{ if (/^Date: /) print \"Date: $thedate\"; else print $0; }" \
> >>         </tmp/timezoneconvert.$$
> >>     # clean up
> >>     rm /tmp/timezoneconvert.$$
> 
> Say that script is named ~/bin/convertdate.sh, you would then add the 
> following to your muttrc:
> 
>     set display_filter=$HOME/bin/convertdate.sh

Neat, I didn't know about display_filter.

Maybe I can use it to join URLs that span lines
(or substitute tinyurl or other short mappings).

By the way, for security reasons, if you're making temp files,
you should probably use a tmp dir in your home, and/or mktemp
for creating the filenames and such.
--

-- 
The driving force behind innovation is sublimation.
-><- <URL:http://www.subspacefield.org/~travis/>
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Travis H. | 1 Feb 19:06
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Re: mutt, gpg, inline, attachments

On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 10:58:10AM -0500, Kyle Wheeler wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31 at 04:18 PM, quoth Stefan M??rkl:
> > I know that officially this isn't possible, but can I make mutt sign 
> > and encrypt messages with attachments inline somehow?  One of my 
> > contacts uses broken software so he can't handle PGP/MIME messages.
> 
> However, it IS possible to encrypt/sign just the text-part of a 
> message that includes attachments, you just have to be aware that an 
> encrypted message with an attachment CANNOT encrypt the attachment.

Alternately, you can use shar or something to make several files
into one, gpg-encrypt it, and then insert that into the body.

That's the poor man's attachment, and it seemed to work for
Usenet for a few decades.

Of course the recipient has to pipe it through sh to extract all
the files, but... you have to use something to serialize/deserialize,
since his mailer can't handle multipart MIME and if you don't want
to send seperate emails.

Or you could use tar and uuencode/uudecode, etc.  Many ways, but
obviously none as easy as installing a MIME compatible email client.

> A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. 
> Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom 
> they consider God-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less 
> easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.

That sounds like something Macchiavelli wrote in "The Prince":
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Rado S | 1 Feb 19:21
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Re: reading color quoted replies

=- David Champion wrote on Thu  1.Feb'07 at 10:25:13 -0600 -=

> > i.e. the way of aiding is not stored in the data
> > itself but left up to the reader (the original www idea).
> >  A tool can perform its beefing-up well enough on this simple/
> > raw data, too, as mutt and other MUAs show.
> 
> I agree with you, and I prefer that too, and from his post I
> think Marc is in our camp.

However, Marc is uncertain about bringing this up with his
limited-/ outlook-only-/ awareness collegues.

> But most people don't care that much, as long as they can tell
> the difference in their way, and most people don't want to
> deviate too far from whatever happens by default.

That's true ... but is this (default=outlook/ html exclusive) what
we mutters want? (Marc being the one in this case)
This reasoning prevents freedom of "weapon"-choice/ personal
optimization/ general improvement: that's what mutters want.

Not all defaults/ features are good just because they came first.
Isn't every company/ undertaking interested in improvement to
better succeed? Better "interoperability" suits them, too!
(Especially when they learn that there's an eMail-world beyond
the company limits. ;)

As often as people don't care for "a better" way, as often they
don't care for _any_ way, as long as it doesn't bother them much.
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Kyle Wheeler | 1 Feb 19:54

Re: Setting timezone to local timezone


On Thursday, February  1 at 11:52 AM, quoth Travis H.:
> Neat, I didn't know about display_filter.
>
> Maybe I can use it to join URLs that span lines 
> (or substitute tinyurl or other short mappings).

Well, for *display*, yes you can (to some extent, anyway). If you want 
things to be joined for when you feed them to urlview, it's easier to 
simply change your urlview command, to be something like this:

macro pager \cB "<pipe-message>uniteurls.sh | urlview<enter>"

> By the way, for security reasons, if you're making temp files, you 
> should probably use a tmp dir in your home, and/or mktemp for 
> creating the filenames and such.

HEH - ya asks fer off-the-cuff scripts from a mailing list, ya gets 
what ya gets. The point was to give you the idea, not a hardened 
solution. I take no responsibility for insecurity, instantaneous 
computer death, missing files, or hair loss that may result from the 
use of the unmodified code I gave you. You want such guarantees, 
contact me for my fee list. ;)

~Kyle
--

-- 
If you're flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit. 
Unless you're a table.
                                                      -- Mitch Hedberg
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David Champion | 1 Feb 20:05
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Re: reading color quoted replies


There are many factors in how people behave.  Interoperability of
personal preference ranks low for most people.  Has no one ever asked
you how you can stand not reading e-mail in full blazing GUI glory?

I said this is a matter for developers, not for users, because
developers (and administrators) are responsible for setting up users'
capabilities and defaults and ensuring interoperability.  I suspect most
users would be fine with > quoting, if that were the default.  Since
it's not, they don't use it.  But even if it's a chosen setting, it most
often aligns with what they like the look of, not what they understand.

It's a lot to ask of many people that they frame their workflow around
issues they don't understand or want to understand, just because
I pitched them a set of reasons that I said were logically sound.
Non-enthusiasts just want it to work with a minimum of fuss and
configuration, and if it looks like it works to them, then it works.

Have you worked in direct user support?  For each professional or
enthusiast, there are hundreds who just use computers as a tool, the way
you would use a hammer or a gas oven.  Few people want to modify their
ovens, even if oven engineers have suggestions for how to do it.

I don't disagree with your rationale, I just don't think that training
everyone else to think "right" isn't very practical as a solution to
interop problems.  Let me know when you convince them all, though, and
I'll pay for drinks. :)

--

-- 
 -D.    dgc <at> uchicago.edu        NSIT    University of Chicago
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William Yardley | 1 Feb 20:15
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Re: reading color quoted replies

I have a vendor who occasionally sends me replies quoted this way.
What's ironic is that he normally top-posts, and I suspect he's doing it
this way because *I* normally quote inline in response to him.

Even better, he sometimes writes his bits in all caps ON THE SAME LINE
as parts of my quoted response.

What I usually do is just guess which bits are mine, and then reformat
the response the way I want it. If I couldn't guess, I'd probably save
the html to a file and view it in a browser.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect mutt to guess / work around this
type of behavior. That's way outside the scope of what mutt can do
reasonably.

w
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Rado S | 1 Feb 20:51
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Re: reading color quoted replies

=- David Champion wrote on Thu  1.Feb'07 at 13:05:27 -0600 -=

> Has no one ever asked you how you can stand not reading e-mail
> in full blazing GUI glory?

(I'm not sure they'd call it "blazing glory" in the first place.
It's often not that they like it but rather have no choice or just
stick with what comes first)

No, on the contrary, 1st they are puzzled by the strange look.
	(http://WIKI.mutt.org/?ConfigList)
If that doesn't drive them away already (declaring me crazy), they
"admire" me for using such an "advanced" (==non-GUI/-mouse) tool
and how "efficient" it works for me, but "it's too hard for me".
And if they still haven't given up, they say "great, maybe I
should switch, too". Admittedly those are _very_ rare, but that
was not the original question anyway. ;)

> I said this is a matter for developers, not for users, because
> developers (and administrators) are responsible for setting up
> users' capabilities and defaults and ensuring interoperability.

Yes, but users can feedback their experiences to the people in
charge so they can reconsider. Users just have to do it so admins
can learn about it at all. Otherwise admins will keep thinking
they do a good job.
"No comment" doesn't necessarily equate to "well done, admin" but
maybe "I'm too lame to bitch and kick your butt to fix things once
for all, so I take pains for a poor workaround or just give up". ;)
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Lukas Ruf | 1 Feb 21:59

Problems importing x509 certs previously exported from thunderbird

Dear all,

for a while I have been using S/MIME encryption with Thunderbird.
Since I have been working with mutt for much longer, I tried to import
the x509-certificates from Thunderbird into mutt's smime_keys
environment.

Without success, unfortunately.

When I run

    smime_keys add_pem <pem_file>

The following error message is returned

    Not all contents were bagged. can't continue. at \
    /usr/bin/smime_keys line 571.

After many attempts without success, I would be more than
happy if this mailing list could give me hints and help --
as urgently required.

Thanks in advance for any help!  Please contact me if I can provide
more information.

wbr,
Lukas
--

-- 
Lukas Ruf   <http://www.lpr.ch> | Ad Personam
rbacs      <http://wiki.lpr.ch> | Restaurants, Bars and Clubs
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Gmane