Alexander Sulfrian | 1 Apr 16:08 2012
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Re: GSoC 2012 - NNTP archive access

Hi,

On Tue Mar 27 22:52:04 CEST 2012, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> On Mar 27, 2012, at 09:09 PM, Alexander Sulfrian wrote:
>
> > What are the next steps you would propose. I unfortunately not up
> > to date with the development of mailman 3. But I am a little bit
> > familiar with the mailman 2 source code.
>
> MM3 will be a better platform to build something like the NNTP
> access on.  The question in my mind is whether this should be done
> as part of the various independent (but related) archiver projects,
> or whether it should be done as a separate "archiver".

there is a second question connected with that: Should the messages
be kept in an additional storage for NNTP access or should the default
archiver be responsible for storage and should be extended with methods
for accessing specific messages?

> In mm3, there's an API for feeding posted messages to an IArchiver,
> but this is quite flexible.  I could imagine that something on the
> other end of this vended messages via NNTP instead of HTTP. 

This would be the scenario if implementing the NNTP access in a new
archiver, separated from the other.

> The one key difference is that you'd like to be able to post to the
> mailing list through NNTP, with probably some additional posting
> rules (e.g. if you're not a member, but we "know" you, or you've
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Barry Warsaw | 1 Apr 21:05 2012

Re: GSoC 2012 - NNTP archive access

BTW, the NNTP queue runner has now been ported to Mailman 3.  You will need to
re-run bin/buildout though, to pick up the new dependency on the mock library.

On Apr 01, 2012, at 04:08 PM, Alexander Sulfrian wrote:

>> MM3 will be a better platform to build something like the NNTP
>> access on.  The question in my mind is whether this should be done
>> as part of the various independent (but related) archiver projects,
>> or whether it should be done as a separate "archiver".
>
>there is a second question connected with that: Should the messages
>be kept in an additional storage for NNTP access or should the default
>archiver be responsible for storage and should be extended with methods
>for accessing specific messages?

This is a good, but larger question.  I've always thought that Mailman will
require a "message store" as defined in the IMessageStore interface.  What
might make sense is to have a single implementation that satisfies the
IArchiver and IMessageStore (and possibly other interfaces), but with a single
on-disk storage.  This could in fact be the thing that backs the prototype
archiver.

>> In mm3, there's an API for feeding posted messages to an IArchiver,
>> but this is quite flexible.  I could imagine that something on the
>> other end of this vended messages via NNTP instead of HTTP. 
>
>This would be the scenario if implementing the NNTP access in a new
>archiver, separated from the other.

With the above, you probably wouldn't need this except as you say, if it is a
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Terri Oda | 2 Apr 02:14 2012

For prospective GSoC students

Some things you should know:

1. Mailman is working under the umbrella organization of the Python 
Software Foundation, so we get hundreds of applications to sort through 
not all of which are related to Mailman.  Please make sure to put 
"Mailman" somewhere in the subject of your application so it doesn't get 
lost in the crowd!

2. On a related note, please make sure your application has a 
descriptive title.  i.e. "GNU Mailman: improving archives by extending 
hyperkitty" or somesuch.  Again, this makes it easier for us to sort 
through the applications in the system.

3. Applications are due April 6th.  Google will not extend this deadline 
for any reason, including if the entire melange system goes down.  (And 
this *has* happened at the last minute.)  Please make sure to get your 
applications in early if you can!  If you don't have an application in 
the system, there is no way we can accept you.

4. You can edit any application you submit, so what I recommend is that 
you all go and submit something right now with a note at the top saying 
that it is a draft.  You can edit it after this is done, and when you're 
ready to finalize you can take the "this is a draft" note off the top.

5. Not all of us are set up as mentors in Melange yet (most PSF mentor 
accounts were only authorized today) so it may still be a couple of days 
before you get feedback.  If you want feedback sooner, please feel free 
to post your proposal to this list!

  Terri
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Terri Oda | 3 Apr 00:07 2012

Re: mailman / archive-ui / licensing questions

On 03/29/2012 02:27 PM, David Jeske wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull<stephen <at> xemacs.org>wrote:
>> I would say you should try to retain copyright, and have the Mailman
>> project distribute it with the S-BSD license under the "mere
>> aggregation" clause of the GPL.
> This agrees with my view of the situation as well. Which leads to the
> question, is the above approach interesting/viable for Mailman-team?
> (assuming the code does something awesome that people want)

If the question is just "would you like another archiver even if the 
licenses don't match?" then I believe the answer is yes.  I think it 
would be really beneficial for us to have more than one archiver on the 
table sooner rather than later, and working with you to make sure all 
the plumbing is there to connect things would be really beneficial to 
us.  The licensing issue might mean you're probably not guaranteed a 
blessing as the standard archiving utility for Mailman, but that never 
stopped other projects like MhonArc!

But... since you arrived around the same time GSoC started, I should ask 
whether you were hoping to do this as a GSoC project?  It'd be a 
worthwhile project to put out there, but it might be lower priority for 
us than more direct development, since one of the goals of GSoC is to 
get new developers who are going to stay around and do future work with 
the project.

  Terri
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Terri Oda | 3 Apr 00:37 2012

Re: Google Summer of Code: Integration of Search Code

On 03/29/2012 11:58 PM, Shayan Md wrote:
> Okay then, can you please tell me how we can put this search code in best
> use of mailman3? I have a proposal to write, I am getting unsure of things
> day by day. Can you also tell me who is the mentor of this project?

When it comes to writing your proposal, I'd be most impressed if you 
looked at search in terms of how it's going to be used.  Take a look at 
some of the work generated by previous years students on search use cases:

http://systers.org/systers-dev/doku.php/usecases-priya:start
http://systers.org/systers-dev/doku.php/mailman_archives_ui_-_yian_shang

These were generated from surveys of mailman users worldwide, so they 
probably show a reasonable picture of expected behaviour.  Figure out 
what sort of data structures an indexes you need to support these use 
cases and work from there.  Don't worry if it's not perfect; your best 
guess is fine for an initial application and we'll ask for clarification 
as necessary.

Please also remember to give a reasonably detailed timeline for what you 
plan to do (e.g. weekly milestones) and how you will integrate code on a 
weekly or biweekly basis. That helps us a lot when evaluating your proposal!

As for who will be mentoring search-related projects... we haven't 
decided.  I was planning to just let the mentors fight for the best 
students once we have all the applications in. ;)  More seriously, 
though, search touches on interests and expertise for pretty much all of 
our mentors, so the primary mentor for a search project will depend on 
what other applications we get.

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Terri Oda | 3 Apr 00:46 2012

Re: [GSoC 2012] Candidate on 'Integration of (existing) search code into Mailman archives'

Hi George,

Your MailmanStats project looks great and would totally fit with what we 
have in mind for stats, though I'm guessing the hyperkitty team has some 
much more extensive work in mind making use of post ratings, tags, etc.

If you're putting together your proposal now, do feel free to mention 
both projects as sources of interest.  Since you already have the stats 
code available, it might be possible to toss the integration in there 
after doing some other work.  Normally I worry about students biting off 
more than they can chew, but given your prior experience with Mailman 
and the fact that you already have the basic code, you can make a case 
for being able to package up that code and contribute it in a week or 
two our of your summer if you're ready for a code review.

  Terri

PS -  For further advice regarding search projects, see my previous post 
to mailman-developers.

On 03/26/2012 03:38 PM, George Chatzisofroniou wrote:
> Hello Mailman Developers,
>
> My name is George Chatzisofroniou, i'm 20 years old and i'm an
> undergraduate student in the Department of Informatics at the
> University of Piraeus (Greece).
>
> Ι have really good previous experience with Mailman. This is because i
> use it for managing mailing lists for almost three years.
>
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Murray S. Kucherawy | 2 Apr 23:58 2012

Presenting on anti-abuse developments

Hi all,

One of the hats I wear these days is technical committee co-chair for the Messaging Anti-Abuse Working
Group (MAAWG).  I'm looking to fill slots for our Berlin (June) and Baltimore (October) conferences.

If someone on the mailman development team would like to come and speak about developments and features of
Mailman (especially the new version) that try to deal with abuse mitigation issues, please contact me
off-list.  I have a request in to the executive director to find out what support we offer to speakers in
terms of expenses, etc., so I'll pass that on once I have it to anyone that replies.

Thanks,
-MSK
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David Jeske | 3 Apr 05:04 2012
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Re: mailman / archive-ui / licensing questions

On Apr 2, 2012 3:07 PM, "Terri Oda" <terri <at> zone12.com> wrote:
>> This agrees with my view of the situation as well. Which leads to the
>> question, is the above approach interesting/viable for Mailman-team?
>> (assuming the code does something awesome that people want)
>
> If the question is just "would you like another archiver even if the
licenses don't match?" then I believe the answer is yes.

The question i "would you BUNDLE another archiver even if the licenses
don't match?"

My archiver has been available for download (like many others) for ten
years. All these sites are still running a limping pipermail archive,
because it's bundled. I want to get Mailman a better bundled archive.

> But... since you arrived around the same time GSoC started, I should ask
whether you were hoping to do this as a GSoC project?

Perhaps it would make things more clear if I expledin why I'm here...

I'm not a student. I've been working in software for 15 years, programming
for almost 30 (since I was 9). I wrote large portions of eGroups / Yahoo
Groups / Google Groups. I'm a successful post-Google entrepreneur. Since
leaving Google I've been angel investing mostly in tech stuff (see my Angel
List).. I've been donating notable chunks of money and time to open source
projects (with my blender donations working out the best so far). Given my
history, and the fact that I keep wanting to tear my hear out reading
mailing list archives in pipermail, I thought I'd give you folks an
archiver that would be nice.

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Pierre-Yves Chibon | 3 Apr 08:15 2012
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Re: Additional Mailman GSoC mentors

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 07:53 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 01:57:03AM -0600, Terri Oda wrote:
> > It's looking like we're going to have more student applicants than in
> > previous years, so I think it'd be great if we could get a few more
> > mentors to match.
> > 
> > If you're a semi-active mailman developer (i.e. I'm going to
> > recognize your name from your mailman-developers postings) and you
> > think you might interested in mentoring for GSoC this summer or just
> > want to know what's involved, please get in touch with me!
> > 
> I'm willing to help mentor some work.  I'd really like to mentor with
> some other people -- especially at the application review stages -- I do
> have more time for day-to-day mentoring if that's done on IRC (Interrupt
> Driven Design, anyone ;-)  But so far, my knowledge of the mailman codebase
> is limited mainly to archiver stuff.
> 
> I can answer questions about using bzr and some launchpad questions
> (although I also have lots of launchpad questions of my own :-).  I'm now
> fully versed in Warsaw import style rules although I should probably
> recertify at the next pycon :-)
> 
> It does seem like there's a lot of interest in archivers this year (at
> least, people have been pinging me about that.  Since archivers for mailman3
> are somewhat in their infancy, it would be good to think of a "what do we
> want the state of archivers to be after the summer and a year from now" so
> that we can make sure that GSoC work fits into that.

Hi,

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Toshio Kuratomi | 3 Apr 20:58 2012
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Re: mailman / archive-ui / licensing questions

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 08:04:23PM -0700, David Jeske wrote:
> On Apr 2, 2012 3:07 PM, "Terri Oda" <terri <at> zone12.com> wrote:
> >> This agrees with my view of the situation as well. Which leads to the
> >> question, is the above approach interesting/viable for Mailman-team?
> >> (assuming the code does something awesome that people want)
> >
> > If the question is just "would you like another archiver even if the
> licenses don't match?" then I believe the answer is yes.
> 
> The question i "would you BUNDLE another archiver even if the licenses
> don't match?"
> 
> My archiver has been available for download (like many others) for ten
> years. All these sites are still running a limping pipermail archive,
> because it's bundled. I want to get Mailman a better bundled archive.
> 
From the talk about what it means to be a FSF project at the mailman sprint
at pycon I don't think a non-FSF copyright assigned archiver would be
bundled into mailman (Core).

Distributed/pointed to by list.org along with mailman and postorius might be
negotiable though :-)  Would that be something you'd like to pursue?

Also -- mailman3's builtin archiver is extremely minimal -- at the moment,
it archives (stores) mail but it doesn't have a means to display that email
on a web page or similar.  Given that sort of bundled archiver, I have
a feeling sites are going to want to run a third-party archiver of some sort
instead of the default.

> 
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