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Nigel Metheringham | 5 Feb 2009 13:36
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Exim daily snapshots

It was pointed out to me that the exim daily snapshots were very out  
of date.  I didn't actually know we were producing snapshots - and in  
fact I was right, we aren't.

Instead, the old ftp site - ftp.csx.cam.ac.uk - still has ancient  
snapshots on there.  The current ftp site (ftp.exim.org) does not.

It would be possible to make daily snapshots.  However I'm not  
convinced its worth the effort (and it will tend to churn the ftp  
mirrors).  Anyone who wishes to have the latest shiniest buggiest code  
to play with can pull a copy from our cvs mirror - see http://wiki.exim.org/EximDevelopment#AnonymousCVS

So my inclination is:-
   1. Get the old snapshots deleted (they are confusing)
   2. Hunt down and change documentation referring to them
   3. Publicise anonymous CVS

Would anyone like to violently disagree with this?

	Nigel.
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[ Nigel Metheringham             Nigel.Metheringham <at> InTechnology.com ]
[ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ]

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Michael Haardt | 5 Feb 2009 15:53

Re: Exim daily snapshots

> It would be possible to make daily snapshots.  However I'm not  
> convinced its worth the effort (and it will tend to churn the ftp  
> mirrors).  Anyone who wishes to have the latest shiniest buggiest code  
> to play with can pull a copy from our cvs mirror - see http://wiki.exim.org/EximDevelopment#AnonymousCVS
>
> So my inclination is:-
>    1. Get the old snapshots deleted (they are confusing)
>    2. Hunt down and change documentation referring to them
>    3. Publicise anonymous CVS
>
> Would anyone like to violently disagree with this?

Not violently, but I always liked snapshots a lot.  Given few people use
them, how about offering them by HTTP only, linked to in the same Wiki
page as yet another way to get Exim? The FTP archive could contain just
a README file in the testing tree that points to the Wiki.

Michael

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Renaud Allard | 5 Feb 2009 19:19
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Re: Exim daily snapshots


On 05 Feb 2009, at 13:36, Nigel Metheringham <nigel.metheringham <at> dev.intechnology.co.uk 
 > wrote:

> It was pointed out to me that the exim daily snapshots were very out
> of date.  I didn't actually know we were producing snapshots - and in
> fact I was right, we aren't.
>
> Instead, the old ftp site - ftp.csx.cam.ac.uk - still has ancient
> snapshots on there.  The current ftp site (ftp.exim.org) does not.
>
> It would be possible to make daily snapshots.  However I'm not
> convinced its worth the effort (and it will tend to churn the ftp
> mirrors).  Anyone who wishes to have the latest shiniest buggiest code
> to play with can pull a copy from our cvs mirror - see http://wiki.exim.org/EximDevelopment#AnonymousCVS
>
> So my inclination is:-
>   1. Get the old snapshots deleted (they are confusing)
>   2. Hunt down and change documentation referring to them
>   3. Publicise anonymous CVS
>
> Would anyone like to violently disagree with this?
>
>

I totally agree. It would be much clearer and more in line with what  
most other projects do.
The only problem I could see with this is people in a company context  
and unable to use cvs behind proxies.
(Continue reading)

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Arkadiusz Miskiewicz | 7 Feb 2009 20:05
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Re: Exim daily snapshots

On Thursday 05 of February 2009, Nigel Metheringham wrote:

>    3. Publicise anonymous CVS

Convert to something nicer, too.

Public repo is a welcome thing.

> 	Nigel.

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Arkadiusz Miśkiewicz        PLD/Linux Team
arekm / maven.pl            http://ftp.pld-linux.org/

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Ted Cooper | 7 Feb 2009 23:48
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Re: Exim daily snapshots

Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
> On Thursday 05 of February 2009, Nigel Metheringham wrote:
> 
>>    3. Publicise anonymous CVS
> 
> Convert to something nicer, too.
> 
> Public repo is a welcome thing.

I'm finding git to be an awesome system if you're thinking of converting ;)

Re: the snapshots

If they've been out of date for this long and no one has complained,
it's time to simply get rid of them. Public access to the CVS is
essentially the same thing anyway.

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Renaud Allard | 8 Feb 2009 00:03
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Re: Exim daily snapshots


On 2/7/09 11:48 PM, Ted Cooper wrote:
> Arkadiusz Miskiewicz wrote:
>> On Thursday 05 of February 2009, Nigel Metheringham wrote:
>>
>>>     3. Publicise anonymous CVS
>> Convert to something nicer, too.
>>
>> Public repo is a welcome thing.
>
> I'm finding git to be an awesome system if you're thinking of converting ;)
>
> Re: the snapshots
>
> If they've been out of date for this long and no one has complained,
> it's time to simply get rid of them. Public access to the CVS is
> essentially the same thing anyway.

Well, I "complained" (not really a complain), and that's why Nigel 
talked about it.
There has been no new release since Philip quit. Some bugs have been 
corrected in the CVS, but it wasn't really publicly available due to the 
lack of documentation listing how to get anon CVS. So I tried getting a 
snapshot like formerly, and I noticed the discrepancy between Cambridge 
and the master site.
Also, people in a company context would have a hard time getting a CVS 
snapshot behind proxies, so snapshot are probably still a good idea.

So, well, maybe it is the moment to make exim 4.70 available.
(Continue reading)

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Graeme Fowler | 8 Feb 2009 15:41

Re: Exim daily snapshots

On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 00:03 +0100, Renaud Allard wrote:
> There has been no new release since Philip quit.

http://lists.exim.org/lurker/message/20080110.172421.1afe6034.en.html

That was January 2008; Philip retired three months prior to that
release.

Personally I don't think the snapshots are as useful as access to the
VCS (whichever app it runs under), but I do believe we should probably
have a formal timeline for bugfix/feature releases (as in minor release
versions) such that we at the very least look every three or six months
at what's changed, then consider packaging it up.

Although Exim is considered a fairly mature project and codebase,
there's no real reason to let it sit idle. Distro maintainers will end
up considering it stalled, at which time usage will start to drop. I for
one don't want that to happen.

Graeme

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Marc Haber | 9 Feb 2009 17:25
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Re: Exim daily snapshots

On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 02:41:55PM +0000, Graeme Fowler wrote:
> Although Exim is considered a fairly mature project and codebase,
> there's no real reason to let it sit idle. Distro maintainers will end
> up considering it stalled, at which time usage will start to drop. I for
> one don't want that to happen.

I already see it happening though. The postfix user base is growing
rapidly, which is, IMO, caused by a menu being more popular than a
do-it-yourself kitchen.

Greetings
Marc

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Graeme Fowler | 9 Feb 2009 17:51

Re: Exim daily snapshots

On Mon, 2009-02-09 at 17:25 +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> I already see it happening though. The postfix user base is growing
> rapidly, which is, IMO, caused by a menu being more popular than a
> do-it-yourself kitchen.

Ah, analogies, gotta love 'em :)

Still: this is an issue which could become pressing. What do the
maintainer group think (most, if not all, of whom are also on this
list)?

It strikes me that we are where we are because there's no one person
driving development forward - either by being the "crazy ideas guy", or
by actually doing the coding. Looking at Bugzilla is depressing :(

Graeme

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Nigel Metheringham | 9 Feb 2009 18:04
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Re: Exim daily snapshots


On 9 Feb 2009, at 16:51, Graeme Fowler wrote:
> It strikes me that we are where we are because there's no one person
> driving development forward - either by being the "crazy ideas guy",  
> or
> by actually doing the coding. Looking at Bugzilla is depressing :(

Well yes.
Unfortunately it needs some people who can put effort into things like
coding and release management, and at this time I don't see those
people around.

There are a lot of people calling for other people to do things,
or making bike shedding suggestions (ie changing to git - which is
somewhat ineffective if there is no one producing changes to version).

My position is that I do not do mail as any significant part of my
work now, so cannot put any work time towards exim.  I also do not
have vast reserves of spare time to push to exim although I have
been trying to at least keep infrastructure etc running.  This also
means I am falling further and further out of touch with the current
state of the MTA art....

So maybe its time to push out a current snapshot as a release and  
close down....

[and yes, I realise that this is basically a call for other people to
do things, although in my defence I am at least not asking for them to
do things for me as I am effectively no longer an exim customer]
(Continue reading)

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Gmane