Alpine Messaging System info ()

Aidan Wilson | 4 Apr 2010 03:22

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Sort by reverse arrival

Hi all,

I've been noticing some behaviour lately when viewing my archived emails. 
My preferred order is reverse arrival (change time to local set as well) 
for Inbox, and by reverse date for sent.

Typically, when i open an archived folder it has my messaged ordered 
somewhat less predictably. I think they're being ordered by the order in 
which they were saved. So by hitting "$a" I should get it sorting by 
arrival, which sort of happens.

I actually get the messages ordered correctly within the months, but the 
months are ordering incorrectly. If I choose reverse arrival, I get Jan 31 
at the top and March 1 at the bottom. If I reverse the order, it does just 
that and I get March 1 at the top and Jan 31 at the bottom.

I have tested this using both preserve order and any order, and it doesn't 
appear to have any effect.

--

-- 
Aidan Wilson

The University of Sydney
+612 9036 9558
+61428 458 969
aidan.wilson@...

Eduardo Chappa | 4 Apr 2010 04:44

Re: Sort by reverse arrival

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010, Aidan Wilson wrote:

AW> I've been noticing some behaviour lately when viewing my archived 
AW> emails. My preferred order is reverse arrival (change time to local 
AW> set as well) for Inbox, and by reverse date for sent.

It seems that you are confused in regards to what arrival and date sort 
are.

Arrival means the order in which the messas were saved i the folder. If 
you save a message from March 1 before a message from January 31, then the 
message sent on March 1 will appear before the one sent on January 31. But 
that has nothing to do with dates, it only has to do with the order in 
which they were saved in the folder.

The Date sort is taken from the Date header in the message, and has 
nothing to do with the date in which the message was saved to the folder. 
That date is configured by the sender of the message and I have seen many 
cases in which a bad configuration by the sender makes this header 
unreliable.

It looks like you want reverse Date for your sort, assuming that the 
people you e-mail with configure their systems correctly.

--

-- 
Eduardo
http://staff.washington.edu/chappa/alpine/

Aidan Wilson | 4 Apr 2010 04:59

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Re: Sort by reverse arrival

On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, Eduardo Chappa wrote:

> Arrival means the order in which the messas were saved i the folder. If
> you save a message from March 1 before a message from January 31, then the
> message sent on March 1 will appear before the one sent on January 31. But
> that has nothing to do with dates, it only has to do with the order in
> which they were saved in the folder.

Okay, this makes sense. I use reverse arrival to sort my regular inbox 
because of the occasional person who has the wrong date on their machine. 
If it is sorted by date then these will often move to the top of the index 
(someone sent me a message the other day datestamped 2015 - and I don't 
want to have to look at it for the next five years)

> The Date sort is taken from the Date header in the message, and has
> nothing to do with the date in which the message was saved to the folder.
> That date is configured by the sender of the message and I have seen many
> cases in which a bad configuration by the sender makes this header
> unreliable.

Precisely why I have been using arrival.

> It looks like you want reverse Date for your sort, assuming that the
> people you e-mail with configure their systems correctly.

I may just have to overlook the occasional case, letting people know that 
they have the wrong time on their machine.

Thanks!

(Continue reading)

Jeffrey Bastian | 6 Apr 2010 21:28

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bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

If I bounce a message to a new address, it changes the From and Date 
headers to my address and the current date.  I can understand putting 
this information in the Resent-From and Resent-Date headers, but it 
shouldn't change the original.  That kind of defeats the purpose of 
bouncing (as opposed to just forwarding), unless I misunderstood what 
bouncing is for.

For example, if this is the original message:
    From: bob@...
    To: jeff@...
    Date: 6 Apr 2010 11:51:01 -0500
    Subject: lunch

If I bounce it to myself at another address, it comes in as:
    Resent-From: jeff@...
    Resent-Date: 6 Apr 2010 12:30:53 -0500
    Resent-To: jeff@...
    From: jeff@...
    To: jeff@...
    Date: 6 Apr 2010 12:30:53 -0500
    Subject: lunch

The original sender and timestamp are now completely lost if I look at 
the email with my otherdomain.com account.

Is this correct behavior?

Thanks!
Jeff Bastian

(Continue reading)

David Morris | 6 Apr 2010 21:44

Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers


On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeffrey Bastian wrote:

> If I bounce a message to a new address, it changes the From and Date headers
> to my address and the current date.  I can understand putting this information
> in the Resent-From and Resent-Date headers, but it shouldn't change the
> original.  That kind of defeats the purpose of bouncing (as opposed to just
> forwarding), unless I misunderstood what bouncing is for.
> 
> For example, if this is the original message:
>    From: bob@...
>    To: jeff@...
>    Date: 6 Apr 2010 11:51:01 -0500
>    Subject: lunch
> 
> If I bounce it to myself at another address, it comes in as:
>    Resent-From: jeff@...
>    Resent-Date: 6 Apr 2010 12:30:53 -0500
>    Resent-To: jeff@...
>    From: jeff@...
>    To: jeff@...
>    Date: 6 Apr 2010 12:30:53 -0500
>    Subject: lunch
> 
> The original sender and timestamp are now completely lost if I look at the
> email with my otherdomain.com account.
> 
> Is this correct behavior?

Well, pine doesn't work that way. Date&From remain unchanged. Resent-from

(Continue reading)

Jeff Bastian | 6 Apr 2010 21:55

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Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeffrey Bastian wrote:
> If I bounce a message to a new address, it changes the From and Date headers 
> to my address and the current date.

I did some more testing and it appears this is only a problem if I bounce 
a message sent to my gmail address.

That is, I've configured alpine to access gmail via IMAP, and send email 
through Google's SMTP servers.  When I bounce a message this way, it 
changes the From and Date headers.

If I use alpine to bounce a message from a more standards-compliant IMAP 
server, the From and Date headers are preserved as expected.

Hrmm..

Jeff

Benjamin R. Haskell | 6 Apr 2010 22:07

Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeff Bastian wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeffrey Bastian wrote:
> > If I bounce a message to a new address, it changes the From and Date 
> > headers to my address and the current date.
> 
> 
> I did some more testing and it appears this is only a problem if I 
> bounce a message sent to my gmail address.
> 
> That is, I've configured alpine to access gmail via IMAP, and send 
> email through Google's SMTP servers.  When I bounce a message this 
> way, it changes the From and Date headers.
> 
> If I use alpine to bounce a message from a more standards-compliant 
> IMAP server, the From and Date headers are preserved as expected.

It's the IMAP server making the changes? and not the SMTP server?

It wouldn't surprise me to find that the SMTP server would munge the 
>From header, but it seems an odd chain for the IMAP server to do so.

--

-- 
Best,
Ben

Jeffrey Bastian | 6 Apr 2010 22:35

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Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

On 04/06/2010 03:07 PM, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
> It's the IMAP server making the changes? and not the SMTP server?
>
> It wouldn't surprise me to find that the SMTP server would munge the
>  From header, but it seems an odd chain for the IMAP server to do so.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm accessing gmail via Google's IMAP and 
SMTP servers, so it's likely smtp.gmail.com that's munging the headers 
when I bounce a message.

I just tried bouncing an email on Gmail IMAP through a different SMTP 
server and the From and Date headers were preserved as expected.

I'll report this to Google.

Thanks!
Jeff

Mike Miller | 6 Apr 2010 22:47

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Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeff Bastian wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeffrey Bastian wrote:
>
>> If I bounce a message to a new address, it changes the From and Date 
>> headers to my address and the current date.
>
>
> I did some more testing and it appears this is only a problem if I 
> bounce a message sent to my gmail address.
>
> That is, I've configured alpine to access gmail via IMAP, and send email 
> through Google's SMTP servers.  When I bounce a message this way, it 
> changes the From and Date headers.
>
> If I use alpine to bounce a message from a more standards-compliant IMAP 
> server, the From and Date headers are preserved as expected.

I also am using Gmail's SMTP server.  I bounced the message I am replying 
to here to a yahoo.com account and it seemed to work as you would want: 
It retained your From, To and Date headers and added the ReSent- fields 
(addresses changed to protect against spam):

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:55:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jeff Bastian <foo@...>
X-X-Sender: foo <at> localhost
To: Alpine Forum <alpine-info <at> u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Alpine-info] bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

ReSent-Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:36:17 -0500 (CDT)

(Continue reading)

Benjamin R. Haskell | 6 Apr 2010 22:51

Re: bouncing emails changes From and Date headers

On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Jeffrey Bastian wrote:

> On 04/06/2010 03:07 PM, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
> > It's the IMAP server making the changes? and not the SMTP server?
> > 
> > It wouldn't surprise me to find that the SMTP server would munge the 
> > From header, but it seems an odd chain for the IMAP server to do so.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm accessing gmail via Google's IMAP 
> and SMTP servers, so it's likely smtp.gmail.com that's munging the 
> headers when I bounce a message.
> 
> I just tried bouncing an email on Gmail IMAP through a different SMTP 
> server and the From and Date headers were preserved as expected.
> 
> I'll report this to Google.

Ha. 

Good luck with that.  Googling:

Gmail on behalf of

came up with Google's "solution" for preventing the annoying "Sent on 
Behalf of" problem (because they won't alter the "Sender:" header):  
enabling external SMTP.

http://groups.google.com/group/Gmail-Help-Message-Delivery-en/browse_thread/thread/f651cb1db5d9dd23/394ac4678b5e7be7

(Continue reading)

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