Adrian Bunk | 3 May 02:34 2005
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[2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

This patch is the majority of a patch by Jesper Juhl.

This patch renames all instances of "---help---" to simply "help" in all 
of the Kconfig files.

The main reason for this patch (quoting Jesper) is:

Consistency. out of ~4000 help entries in 134 Kconfig files, 747 of 
those entries use "---help---" as the keyword, the rest use just "help". 
So the users of "---help---" are clearly a minority and by renaming them 
we make things consistent. - I hate inconsistency. :-)

My change to the patch was to drop all parts that don't apply to both 
2.6.12-rc3 and 2.6.12-rc3-mm2 (for making inclusion in Linus' tree 
easier).

My plan for this issue is:
- get this patch accepted
- rename all remaining "---help---" in both -mm and Linus' tree
- remove the "---help---" from the Kconfig language

---

This patch is attached gzip'ed because it's > 200 kB.

 arch/alpha/Kconfig                   |   12 +-
 arch/arm/Kconfig                     |   10 +-
 arch/arm/mach-clps711x/Kconfig       |    2 
 arch/arm/mach-footbridge/Kconfig     |    2 
 arch/arm26/Kconfig                   |    2 
(Continue reading)

Roman Zippel | 3 May 11:10 2005

Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

Hi,

On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> This patch is the majority of a patch by Jesper Juhl.
> 
> This patch renames all instances of "---help---" to simply "help" in all 
> of the Kconfig files.
> 
> The main reason for this patch (quoting Jesper) is:
> 
> Consistency. out of ~4000 help entries in 134 Kconfig files, 747 of 
> those entries use "---help---" as the keyword, the rest use just "help". 
> So the users of "---help---" are clearly a minority and by renaming them 
> we make things consistent. - I hate inconsistency. :-)

This has nothing to do with consistency but with readability.
This was introduced to better separate the help in large menu entries. In 
order to accept this patch, I would either like hear reasons, why this 
isn't needed anymore or I'd like to see an alternative, more consistent 
separator.

bye, Roman

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(Continue reading)

Adrian Bunk | 3 May 11:22 2005
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Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 11:10:48AM +0200, Roman Zippel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
> > This patch is the majority of a patch by Jesper Juhl.
> > 
> > This patch renames all instances of "---help---" to simply "help" in all 
> > of the Kconfig files.
> > 
> > The main reason for this patch (quoting Jesper) is:
> > 
> > Consistency. out of ~4000 help entries in 134 Kconfig files, 747 of 
> > those entries use "---help---" as the keyword, the rest use just "help". 
> > So the users of "---help---" are clearly a minority and by renaming them 
> > we make things consistent. - I hate inconsistency. :-)
> 
> This has nothing to do with consistency but with readability.
> This was introduced to better separate the help in large menu entries. In 
> order to accept this patch, I would either like hear reasons, why this 
> isn't needed anymore or I'd like to see an alternative, more consistent 
> separator.

The separator used for the help is to indent help texts by two 
additional spaces.

IMHO, Kconfig files are quite readable due to this indentation even 
though only a minority of the entries was using "---help---" even 
before this patch.

(Continue reading)

Roman Zippel | 3 May 12:09 2005

Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

Hi,

On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> The separator used for the help is to indent help texts by two 
> additional spaces.

Yes, that's an additional indicator.

> IMHO, Kconfig files are quite readable due to this indentation even 
> though only a minority of the entries was using "---help---" even 
> before this patch.

So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly? Does it make Kconfig worse?
Sorry, but only because it's not used that often, is not enough of a 
reason for me to remove it. If it helps only a little bit to spot the help 
text start easier, it's IMO worth to keep it.

bye, Roman

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Adrian Bunk | 3 May 12:57 2005
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Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 12:09:37PM +0200, Roman Zippel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
> > The separator used for the help is to indent help texts by two 
> > additional spaces.
> 
> Yes, that's an additional indicator.
> 
> > IMHO, Kconfig files are quite readable due to this indentation even 
> > though only a minority of the entries was using "---help---" even 
> > before this patch.
> 
> So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly? Does it make Kconfig worse?

The ugly thing is that there are currently two different ways to express 
the same thing. It only causes confusion for people who think those 
different syntaxes had a different meaning.

> Sorry, but only because it's not used that often, is not enough of a 
> reason for me to remove it. If it helps only a little bit to spot the help 
> text start easier, it's IMO worth to keep it.

Do you or does anyone else have a problem with spotting the help text 
start with "only" two additional spaces indentation?

If it's only for Aunt Tillie it's not required.

> bye, Roman
(Continue reading)

Roman Zippel | 3 May 15:47 2005

Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

Hi,

On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:

> > So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly? Does it make Kconfig worse?
> 
> The ugly thing is that there are currently two different ways to express 
> the same thing. It only causes confusion for people who think those 
> different syntaxes had a different meaning.

Languages often have more than one way to express something, this is not 
different.
Early on there was some confusion about this from people writing new 
Kconfig entries (not just reading existing ones), but this was became a 
non-issue since it's documented now.

> > Sorry, but only because it's not used that often, is not enough of a 
> > reason for me to remove it. If it helps only a little bit to spot the help 
> > text start easier, it's IMO worth to keep it.
> 
> Do you or does anyone else have a problem with spotting the help text 
> start with "only" two additional spaces indentation?

It is easier to spot! Is it a big help? I don't know, but I don't see any 
improvement in removing them.
Personally I'd rather leave it to the maintainers of these entries, if 
they don't like it, they can remove it. If this feature is one day not 
used anymore, I'll remove it.

> If it's only for Aunt Tillie it's not required.
(Continue reading)

Bodo Eggert | 3 May 15:56 2005
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Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

Roman Zippel <zippel <at> linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:

>> IMHO, Kconfig files are quite readable due to this indentation even
>> though only a minority of the entries was using "---help---" even
>> before this patch.
> 
> So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly?

IMO yes, it's less readable for me than "help". ¢¢
--

-- 
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Robert P. J. Day | 4 May 12:54 2005
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Re: Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

On Tue, 3 May 2005, Bodo Eggert <harvested.in.lkml <at> posting.7eggert.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Roman Zippel <zippel <at> linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
> >> IMHO, Kconfig files are quite readable due to this indentation even
> >> though only a minority of the entries was using "---help---" even
> >> before this patch.
> >
> > So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly?
>
> IMO yes, it's less readable for me than "help". ¢¢

the main problem with having two alternatives for the same thing (in
*any* context) is that it gives beginners a distorted sense of what is
acceptable usage.

if you accept both "help" and "---help---", then you just *know* that
a beginner will notice that and start thinking, "hmmm ... well, if
both of those are alright, maybe "--help--" or "-help-" is alright,
too.  and maybe it's just the leading hyphens that really count, not
the trailing hyphens.  and maybe ..."

kbuild is already over-convoluted as it is.  please don't give folks
even more redundant ways to do exactly the same thing.

rday
Adrian Bunk | 4 May 13:50 2005
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Re: [2.6 patch] Kconfig: rename "---help---" to "help" in Kconfig files (first part)

On Tue, May 03, 2005 at 03:47:46PM +0200, Roman Zippel wrote:

> Hi,

Hi Roman,

> On Tue, 3 May 2005, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> 
> > > So why exactly has to be removed? Is it ugly? Does it make Kconfig worse?
> > 
> > The ugly thing is that there are currently two different ways to express 
> > the same thing. It only causes confusion for people who think those 
> > different syntaxes had a different meaning.
> 
> Languages often have more than one way to express something, this is not 
> different.
> Early on there was some confusion about this from people writing new 
> Kconfig entries (not just reading existing ones), but this was became a 
> non-issue since it's documented now.
>...

Different ways for expressing the same thing is good for writers but bad 
for readers.

E.g. where to place opening braces in C is a religious issue. For the 
Linux kernel, CodingStyle sets the rules. And although I'd prefer to set 
them different, I have to admit that the consistency indide the kernel 
makes reading easier.

> bye, Roman
(Continue reading)

karthik | 6 May 21:27 2005

Doubt what is the difference of compiling module in SuSE and Redhad , Mandrake

Hi ,

          Can anybody tell me what is the difference in compiling a module in 
SuSE distribution and other LInux distribution like Redhad or Mandrake.

      In 2.6 kernel  a module compiled in one version(say 2.6.4) of SuSE is 
not loading in another version(say 2.6.8) of SuSE, even when we convert the 
module.o to module.ko in the latest version of SUSE.

      Can anybody explain me the reason for the same.

Karthik

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Gmane